Episode 118 - Curiosity Over Judgment: A Simple Way to Deepen Connections

Shownotes:

You can choose your adventure with this one - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

And you can find the article on Thrive Global!

• Curiosity Over Judgment: A Simple Way to Deepen Connections

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LainieRowell.com⁠⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, ⁠Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You⁠ is available too!

Both ⁠Evolving with Gratitude⁠ & ⁠Bold Gratitude⁠ have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠⁠

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Episode 117: Angela Duckworth on the Power of Situation[Ally]

Shownotes:

After nearly a year in the making, this convo with Angela Duckworth was well worth the wait. We dive deep into the nuances of achievement, discussing why grit alone doesn’t always guarantee success and how our situations can profoundly shape our resilience. Angela shares surprising insights, practical strategies, and stories that will make you rethink the power of your environment. Tune in for an inspiring and thought-provoking discussion full of wisdom and actionable takeaways.

Thrive Global Article:

Situation[Ally]: Angela Duckworth on Turning Grit and Circumstance into Success

About Our Guest:

Angela Duckworth is the Rosa Lee and Egbert Chang Professor at the University of Pennsylvania and faculty co-director of the Penn-Wharton Behavior Change for Good Initiative. Her TED Talk is among the most viewed of all time, and her book, Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, is a #1 New York Times bestseller.

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Did you ever see the Will Ferrell movie, Elf?

Angela Duckworth: Love it. Yes. Okay.

Lainie Rowell: So I have to tell you,

Angela Duckworth: I don't haven't memorized, but

Lainie Rowell: okay. I'm not going to ask you to quote lines or anything, but

Angela Duckworth: I hope not.

Lainie Rowell: There's a part of the movie where the publishing house has this famous author on the phone.

And one of the characters is like, it's, it's just so amazing to be talking to you on our speaker phone. And I was like, That's kind of how I feel about talking to Angela Duckworth today. So this is like, so exciting to me. I'm happy to be doing with you.

Angela Duckworth: Oh, you're so kind. Well, that that's really nice of you to say, and I'm equally excited and I love being not in charge.

I love that you are going to be like our guide. I'm going to be like the chatty passenger in a car. So yeah, no, this is going to be fun.

Lainie Rowell: I love a chatty passenger in a car.

Since your 2013 TED Talk that was so popular, like 34 million views, I think, last time I checked, like that's

Angela Duckworth: Oh my god, I haven't, I don't check.

Lainie Rowell: I know you're not, refreshing your screen every day.

Angela Duckworth: I hope not.

Lainie Rowell: But I'm here to tell you, you're at over 34 million views for that. And then you follow up with the instant New York Times bestseller in 2016, Grit. And this It seems to be a concept that really strikes a chord with people, and I just wondered if, over the years of sharing the importance of this character trait, has anything evolved for you, or are there any like, misconceptions that you're like, hey, I need to clear this up, because I think people might not understand still be hearing this.

Angela Duckworth: Well, just this morning, I met somebody who had read Grit. Her name is Alexandra and she's lovely. And she rushed over and introduced herself. I was like standing in an office and she had a copy of her book and I, you know, signed it and we hugged. And I said to her in so many words, I mean, I wouldn't change a word actually in Grit.

I don't feel like anything that I've learned in the last eight years now has contradicted for me what the main message of that book is. And the main message is simply that if you really stick to something, and if you really embrace the idea that you can practice and get better and that with feedback and mistakes and even setbacks that you can progress, you will go much farther than you might think, given whatever you imagine your initial level of talent is.

So for me, you know, the antagonist in the book, if you will, is talent, innate talent in particular, because I think that word is used in different ways, but just this idea that, you know, Oh, how gifted am I? And I have, if anything, become more convinced that people who become truly excellent at what they do it's more that they love it.

It's more that they think about it all the time. It's more that they are willing to put in the tonnage as Jerry Seinfeld, I think sometimes refers to writing, right? It's a game of tonnage. And it's not grim. Like, grit is a word that might sound grim to people. Like, oh, you have to force yourself.

But what these extraordinary people do is like they wake up, you know, in some deep way, like wanting to think about a certain thing again and again, wanting to work on their craft. And that's just very different from talent. And it's not correlated. Grit's not correlated positively with measures of talent.

So that's the message of grit. I said to Alexandra this morning, Lainie, I said,, I am glad that you found something in this book. I'm here to tell you in person that I believe in that message. I believe in the science behind it. But as we've, spoken about before, Lainie, I am actually now thinking about what was incomplete about that book.

So if you think about the story of success, and grit's a big part of it, and maybe a bigger part than people think what else is there? And that's where my mind is now and we may get to this in this conversation, but I'm now thinking and I am supposed to be writing a book about this, but it's it's turned out to be a lot harder to write than the first one.

I am thinking about the situations that we move in and out of in our lives that really bring out our best, because you can put a really gritty person in a really not great situation, a company that's not aligned with their values, a mentor who's not a great mentor, a culture that's not a fit, or even physically, you know, the surroundings that we, have our phones or whatever, and that person's , grit will not have an opportunity to shine.

So I'm thinking about completing the story of success. But I haven't yet written the second book as, as I think I told you.

Lainie Rowell: Which is fine. We're all excited for it. I know, I know I speak for many other people when I say we anticipate with great delight, the next Angela Duckworth book, but we also want you to not feel that pressure because I do really.

Angela Duckworth: That's just encouragement.

Lainie Rowell: I mean, yeah, it's, it's encouragement. Hopefully you feel the love and the support, but not the pressure. I mean, writing books are hard,

Angela Duckworth: like so hard.

Lainie Rowell: I think it's especially hard I'm just imagining that, you know, you write an instant New York Times bestseller and you have more to say, but it's like, well, now I want to make sure it's as good as it can be.

I don't know. I'm just.

Angela Duckworth: No, you are a good psychologist. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, just being like honest, absolutely. I think there's a lot of self imposed pressure, maybe some pressure from without also like some expectations and, and so forth. I find in addition to all of that, Lainie, I think that the reason why this book is so important is the same reason why it's been really hard to write, which is, I think that if you think about, you know, personal qualities, you know, character strengths , like grit, it's just a really eye catching thing.

Like, you know, you tell a story about a really gritty individual and it's where our attention and our eye wants to go. The situation is almost by definition, the backdrop. Like, where was this person? What are their outside influences? Where are the places we can be that we are at our best?

But then you end up trying to write a book and tell stories about places and settings. And it's just not as charismatic in some ways. I feel like that's the very reason I need to write this book because.

I'll tell you one story. There's this guy named Roger Barker. Even somebody who's trained in psychology, you know, you and I might not have ever heard of Roger Barker.

And that is because he was very famous for a short amount of time and then slipped into complete obscurity, I think, because what he studied was the power of the situation. So, so Roger Barker was originally at Stanford, you know, and he was he had a girlfriend and she was a zoologist, not a psychologist.

And so she would go to these tide pools and crouch down in her boots and, like, take out the clipboard and the stopwatch and just, like, make observations of, like, I don't know, tadpoles or whatever you look at in marshes. And he, thought this was so interesting because it's not how he was trained.

And he had the idea at some point early Or maybe even midway in his career, that maybe if we really studied human behavior with a stopwatch and a clipboard and really just observe in as objective way as possible, like how people go through their whole days. So if we do these, like things called day studies, where he would follow someone around and like with a stopwatch, kind of like, oh, at 2:02, tied shoes. 2:04, you know, coughed. I mean, it was just like a little record as if you were observing an animal in the wild. And very soon after he started these, he realized that when you really observe human behavior in this kind of objective way, you see how people's behavior is so powerfully shaped by their situation.

Like he put it this way. He'd be like, when you're in the supermarket, you behave supermarket. When you are at church, you behave church. You know, when you are at a supper, you behave supper. Like you shape your behavior unconsciously to your situations. And I think the fact that he was at one point very well known, but then slipped into obscurity is partly because we're not used to training our eye on where we are and how it may be in invisible ways, influencing how we feel, what we think, what we say, and the choices we make.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. The third teacher, have you heard that phrase before?

Angela Duckworth: No. What's that?

Lainie Rowell: It's to do with the classroom in an education setting, the classroom being the third teacher. I don't know why it's the third teacher and not the second.

Angela Duckworth: Who's the second teacher?

Lainie Rowell: But it is about the space design. Now I'll have to, if I find something on it, I'll put it in the show notes for anyone listening.

But it is kind of that, like you call it the backdrop. It's like this invisible, but it plays a bigger role than we realize because we're a little distracted with everything else going on. So the third teacher, the collective experiences throughout the day as a part of the space, the people, and how it's interacted with.

Angela Duckworth: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it was Aristotle who said we are social animals.

I mean, we are we're also cultural animals, right? And by the way, we're also physical animals. And I think like all animals, just like Roger Barker and his girlfriend, if you want to know her name was Louise that, that this idea that we are very adaptive to the habitat in which we are living.

And I think the one thing that makes human beings a kind of fascinating exception to the rule , for the other animals on the planet is that we shape our habitats. Of course, We often screw up our habitats, right?

But I think the idea that if you recognize, and this is what Roger Barker tried to say, he actually had slipped into obscurity in his own lifetime.

So it's very interesting because he, you know, at one point was at the very height of fame and quite literally, political leaders and journalists would like beat the path to his door and, you know, And then he sank into obscurity in his own lifetime. And what he said at the very end of his career and his life was, you know, the message I was trying to deliver is that once you understand the power of the habitat or the situation you're in, you can then shape it.

Right. He was like, this might be the most important thing anybody could do. That if you, for example, want to act more gritty, right? You, of course, you could work on internal things, like your mindsets, and your habits, and I, you know, already written about that. But also, you can put yourself in cultures with people and things around you that are going to basically support your grit, right? , And encourage you to develop your grit. I think it's kind of poignant actually. I mean, he wrote about how hard it was to deliver this message to the world. And I will tell you as somebody who's trying to write a book about the power of the situation and what we can do with it, like, Oh my gosh, I wish I could resurrect Roger Barker and, you know, cry on his shoulder because I think he's right.

Lainie Rowell: And when I hear you share your work, there's always a through line of agency, right?

Angela Duckworth: I know, I think some people don't like that, but I'm, I'm always looking for the agency. People think it's very blame the victim. Some people, not, not everyone.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, that's it. That's a dark approach on it for the people who are taking that. I mean, do they need a hug?

I don't know. That's,

Angela Duckworth: well, well, agency is though. Yeah, you're, you're right. And I think if working on this book, which I have been for, you know, the last now coming on like three years. So my PhD advisor, as you may or may not know, was Marty Seligman, and he is now a colleague and, you know, he will always be, as I call him, my second father and agency is actually the title of his maybe, he says, like his last book.

It's not yet published. So Marty reflected on his long career as a clinical psychologist, as the inventor of the term, learned helplessness and then learned optimism, positive psychology. That he would describe his entire career as working on agency in one form or another. And his belief is that agency is the driver of human progress.

That if you look across the span of human history going all the way back to its very beginnings, and if you ask the question like, where does progress come from? How do we get the wheel and farming and, now technology and so forth. He would say that it was always driven by a sense of, I can do this.

I can do this in the future. I can imagine possibilities. These are forms of agency for Marty. And for me, what this book is about is yes, I mean, you're not wrong. I'm always looking for agency. I think if the first book, Grit, was about agency over your beliefs and your attitude you know, the things that people often say, like control the controllables, right?

Like how you show up. I think there's also agency that we have over our situations. So there's situational agency, like circumstances are not just given, sometimes you can't change things. But there's often this paraphrasing of Viktor Frankl. I mean, I'm sure many people listening to your conversations are familiar with Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning, and Viktor Frankl, the psychiatrist, wrote that when imprisoned in Auschwitz which he survived but of course, many, many didn't.

And in that book, there is this idea that sometimes you cannot change your circumstances. And when you cannot change your circumstances, you still have agency over how you react to them. But I would like to add a PS that sometimes you can change your circumstances, and then you should act on them.

And I think somebody like Viktor Frankl would never have said , Oh, well, just, accept that the Nazis are taking over Europe and imprisoning Jews. Like, I think he would have said, wait, let's change that situation. So I think situational agency is it's a hard idea to write about. It's not as charismatic in a way as writing about personal character strengths like grit.

But when I really ask myself, like, who do I know who is truly successful and happy, you know, these are people who do have situational agency. They don't just say, well, this is the town I'm born in. This is my job, that's my boss. They make intentional changes to their situations in very strategic ways.

Lainie Rowell: I think it's so easy, especially we live in an era of soundbites, to get into these false dichotomies, like if the individual matters, the situation doesn't.

Angela Duckworth: Yes, yes,

Lainie Rowell: But there's so much nuance. And I almost wonder would you say that there are through lines between grit and self control and situational agency, if you will.

But what's the nuance? Help us think through, like, I know from you, grit is passion and perseverance. And self control is actually something you've written about even more than grit in your work. So, help us think through, what are the nuances?

Angela Duckworth: Well, okay, first I'm going to give you a metaphor, you know, for the person and situation.

I think, and I've thought about metaphors a lot and, you know, no metaphor is perfect, but the one that is capturing it for me personally lately is that the person, the situation come together in like a chemical reaction and they produce your response. And what do I mean by that? It means that There is an interaction like, you know, if you ever made one of those little volcanoes and it's like baking soda and vinegar and a little food color in there and like all of a sudden you've got, fake lava coming up, but, the baking soda alone does not create bubbles.

The vinegar alone doesn't create bubbles. So we want to think about the person situation is coming together and kind of chemical reaction. And that's why when you look at successful people I think we should ask what personal qualities, what strengths of character like grit or self control do they have? But I think we should also ask, and what were the situations they were in?

Because it's always both. I mean, it can't be that it's only their situation or only the person. So I think that metaphor for me is, is working that the person's situation or like two chemicals in a chemical reaction, they come together and you need to find as a person, the situations that bring out the best, you know, like what, is the situation that will make you happy?

What is the situation that will make you gritty or curious, et cetera? So that's one thing. It's a metaphor for how I think situations interact with grit, with self control, with anything else about you as a person. And. And then you asked about self control and grit because they sound the same, actually, to a lot of people.

Just one sounds just like more than the other. But, I'll say what I think which is that grit is pursuing a very long term goal, maybe over years, maybe longer, with passion and with perseverance. And it is the hallmark of very high achievers. They have a kind of obsessive, relentless quality to them, but they're not pursuing goals over like days and, and weeks.

I mean, they really are trying to do something very, very hard that might even take a lifetime or even more. There are people who, you know, feel like the life that they will lead will not even be enough to pursue some standard of excellence or some project. So that's what grit is. And I think you got it exactly right, at least the way I would define it.

Self control is a little bit more of an everyday capacity. So when you exert self control, you choose something, like for example to drink water instead of drinking, you know, whatever it is that you don't think you should be drinking as much, like, I don't know, Diet Coke or whatever it is, you're making some everyday choice.

It's true that the, the act of self control means you're choosing something that is better for you in the quote unquote long run than immediately, but we're really literally talking about, like moments later, you're going to feel good about yourself, not necessarily like years later.

So I think self control is on a different timescale. I think it's very elemental to just like everyday living, not just world class excellence. Like you need self control to floss your teeth. You need self control to go to bed at a reasonable hour and do all the other things that we're supposed to do for sleep hygiene.

You need self control to, like, manage your temper if somebody cuts you off in traffic or runs a red light. And, you know, you need self control all the time because we're always faced with these choices where, you know, where one would feel better like telling the person exactly what you think or alternatively something which is going to be better in the long run, but not years and decades, right?

So, so that's how I think they are related because they're both about achieving goals and that's how they're not related, right? That's how they're at least, right? So I do study both. You're kind to know that, but I think they're not like, oh, self control's, you know, this, and grit is just 10x this.

That's, that's not what I think is going on.

Lainie Rowell: I actually think grit is very important. It's something I value. I hope people see that in me.

Angela Duckworth: I think you're very gritty.

Lainie Rowell: Why, thank you. I appreciate that. I'm going to take that to the bank right now.

Angela Duckworth: Yes, you can.

Lainie Rowell: I think the harder thing in the human condition is the in the moment to make that choice.

Like, I think of it as like, I have my aspirational self and then my actual self. So my aspirational self wants to go run 10 miles. The actual, Self might choose to go eat Ben and Jerry's. And you know, like how do I kind of hack the system in a way? Like how do I make sure that yes, I have the grit, but in the moment I've got this self.

Angela Duckworth: But in the moment you're like, , and in the moment you probably have some conscious awareness, first of all that you've been in this choice point before. And that feeling, by the way, I hate this feeling, you have this, like, internal tension. Some thinkers about this, and I say thinkers because, you know, some psychologists, also some economists have said it's like having a war inside yourself where your aspirational self and your lazy self are like, at war with each other.

And Jerry Seinfeld has this great bit on this. He's like, it's like morning guy and night guy and night guy wants to party and have fun and morning guy needs to go to work. And you know, you're at war in yourself, right? You have two selves. So I think that when you come back to like the power of the situation, I think that what most people do is they basically say, it's like, I need more willpower.

They're like, well, I should just get off this couch. I mean, the whole Nike you know, just do it, right? Just, just do it. And when we talk to teenagers about not going on social media or not staying up till two in the morning, scrolling, you know, they recognize this dilemma.

They feel this internal war, but they'll often say things like, well, just don't, you know, don't be a baby. Just do it. Like just force yourself, but there's another way to enact self control, that is totally different, and it is to use your situation. I mean, for example, right, I've done this study with teenagers.

I've done it in a large school district, but I also recently collected data from a Gallup poll. So it's a representative sample of teenagers. And we simply asked them, if you had to study for a big test, where would you keep your phone? And they have a number of options that range from right next to me face up with my notifications on so I don't miss anything and then kind of like oh we'll face down it's muted and then like okay you know arms reach or like what you know like you know across the room in another room and the farther the phone The higher the GPA.

Right. And I think that is an alternative to willpower. Yeah. You know, like if you're gonna keep your phone right there and just will yourself not to look at it, well that's gonna be harder. You know, going back to your example of like going out for a long run versus. You know, well, you don't even have to eat Ben and Jerry's.

You just be like not going out for a long run, right? What could you do in your situation that would get your situation to kind of do the work for you? So I think a lot of people find it useful to get dressed into their workout clothes, right? Like if they get dressed into their workout clothes, that's not a lot of energy.

But like once you're in your workout clothes and you literally put on your sneakers and, by the way, you can also change your situation by teeing up like a favorite podcast or, you know, you said you were listening to music before we were talking, like that has a technical term, it's called temptation bundling, which I'm sure many of your listeners and you know about, but these are all ways that you can not rely on internal willpower, but get your situation to be set up in an optimal way that it pushes you out the door for your run.

And then. You're off, right? And I think many of us know that like, when you take like the first three steps, those are the hardest. But in psychology, what we would call this is situational self control.

Lainie Rowell: Well, and to be clear, 10 miles is never happening. That is beyond aspirational.

Angela Duckworth: Maybe once I ran 10 miles.

Lainie Rowell: No, 10 miles is definitely not happening. Going back to the example of the phone, I feel like I'm someone with pretty decent self control, but me against that device that has been engineered to grab my attention and hold on to my attention as long as possible, I don't like my odds.

And so I have to make, I have to make it harder.

Angela Duckworth: What do you do?

Like, yeah, tell me about like, what do you, what do you find tempting? Like, which apps do you find tempting, and tell me, what you're doing, how it's going. I find this really interesting

Lainie Rowell: so I don't bring my phone into my bedroom, but no halo here.

I do have an iPad in the bedroom. I actually turn on time management. What is it called? Downtime? Just on my device, I actually have it set for screen time to be turned off until 8. 30 in the morning.

Angela Duckworth: Oh, is that something you can set in the settings?

Lainie Rowell: Yes, it is. Now, it's kind of along the lines of parental controls.

But since I'm the adult, I can overwrite it. But the thing that happens is because I have it, this like notification that it's like screen time. no time left or something like that. It reminds me like, okay, you're not supposed to be doing this right now. You have told yourself, don't do this. So are you going to override the, the one who knows better?

And so that's been really helpful for me.

Angela Duckworth: Has it worked? I mean, has it, I'm sure it's not a hundred percent, but has it been helpful?

Lainie Rowell: I would say it's 90%.

Angela Duckworth: Wow, that's really good.

Lainie Rowell: It's pretty unusual. I mean, life happens, you know, if I'm on the road speaking I'm probably going to get into it because I might need to check something before I go out and do whatever.

Angela Duckworth: But it gives you that moment of intentionality, right? So that you're not You know, I think by the way you know, this, this little war that we're fighting, you know, our present self, our future self, you know, the aspirational self and the more impulsive self. I think that is exactly what one of the great thinkers on this was this Nobel laureate now passed named Thomas Schelling, and his Nobel prize was for game theory, for figuring out how enemies outstrategized and he was a chain smoker and he had to use game theory and like, okay, if you have two enemies or and he had the Thomas who wanted to smoke and he had the Thomas who wanted to live and so he basically said, you know what, the Thomas who wants to live has to figure out how to set up their physical situation and the social situation to like, tell your friends that you're quitting, you know, get the cigarettes out of the house.

And for us, you know, in our generation, since there are fewer smokers, it would be like, figure out the settings on your phone that are going to help you. Like, don't plug in your phone by your bed. I think for my own daughters who are 23 and 21 you know, I'll tell you like the day that one of them said they were deleting Instagram, I did a little jig of joy, like, she was like, I'm gonna change my situation.

She wasn't gonna use willpower to not go on it. And then, more recently, Lucy, who's the younger, she's 21, she has gotten what's called a light phone, and I hadn't even heard about this, right, but it's like a 1995 style, whatever, like, it doesn't have a screen. I mean, it's basically an old fashioned phone, and she put her SIM card in there, and she's not using willpower.

This is what I mean by situational agency, right? Like, when you understand that you have situational agency, that you can use situational self control, not willpower, that you can, in a way, externalize behavior change. I mean, to me that's the real secret.

Or I'll just say that when you use willpower, it feels terrible. And eventually it doesn't work. Not because it's a muscle. I don't actually think willpower is a muscle, but just because, it's like always pushing a boulder up a mountain, right? Like eventually a boulder rolls down again.

So I'm a big fan of situational self control as a form of situational agency. And, I use a different technique. I have this app called OneSec and OneSec is very similar to what you're saying, but basically when you go on, for me, I know this is so nerdy, but the thing that I was using my phone compulsively to, and by the way, this painting of myself on my phone in the background was my.

89 year old mother, like, apparently took this picture of me and she painted this because she was like, Oh, cause you're always on your phone checking my email. And so I was like, Oh my gosh. So I got this app and all it does is that it creates a little delay. So when you want to go on your tempting app, you have to wait a few seconds.

It makes you breathe. It's like the screen turns different color and it's like, breathe in, breathe out. And then it asks you. Do you really want to go on this? And of course you can say yes and go, but like you, I have found that that moment of like just waking up and being intentional, it's like, and this is the friction, it's like, who wants to wait a few seconds?

It's really changed my behavior.

Lainie Rowell: I'm a huge fan of speed bumps that are gonna keep me from going down the road I don't want to go down because it's

Angela Duckworth: Right!

Lainie Rowell: Wait, wait, why am I even going here? So I love speed bumps, I love that Lucy has more than a speed bump, she put up a barricade, like, good for her.

Angela Duckworth: Yeah, she did, she Yeah, so she wants to use her phone, she has to, like, literally take the SIM card out and put it in the other phone, yeah.

Lainie Rowell: Amazing, good for her. Lucy, mad respect. Well, okay, I know I have to let you go soon, but I do just want to give you an opportunity to share.

Is there anything that you can't share enough or that you haven't really shared but you think people need to know?

Angela Duckworth: Well, when we talk about situational agency and how grit alone is not enough, right? There is something that we haven't talked about, which is, I think, a part of your situation, I think is really important, I think, especially young people, but all of us, like, if we had some awareness, and that is mentors.

I think mentors are, you know, a factor that is not Inside you, right? It's not your mindset or your internal attitude. It's something outside you. And if I could point out, you know, one you know, thing in my life that has really made the biggest difference is that I have had a series of mentors who taught me what I know who have encouraged me when I lacked confidence.

You know, I already mentioned Marty Seligman. I will say that I also have been mentored by, you know, you've heard the 10, 000 hour rule and like that 10, 000 hours of practice. So that scientist is named Anders Ericsson and he was a very important mentor to me. He's now passed.

But I feel like. Anybody who becomes successful, and I think it was Oprah Winfrey who said this anybody who really becomes successful has mentors. And, and one form of situational agency is you know, changing your settings on your phone. Another form of situational agency is, getting into your workout clothes or teeing up your podcast in the right way.

But another form of situational agency is going out and very proactively asking, how do I. Learn from other people who are a little older than me, usually, and definitely farther down the path, right? Because that's all a mentor is, is somebody who knows something that you don't. And just a couple days ago in my undergraduate class, we had Jason Kyler, who is the former CEO of Hulu, and a very interesting person.

you know important person in media and technology. And he was giving advice to the undergraduates in my class. And he said, you know, I think of mentorship much more broadly than most people do. A mentor is anyone who has something to teach you. And then we had this conversation about how one of the barriers to creating these relationships is young people often think like it's a lifelong thing, you know, that has to be some really kind of like epic really, no, a mentor is anybody who has something to teach you, you know, somebody who's a little farther down the path.

And once you understand that you can proactively make mentors, mentors for a reason, mentors for a season, yes, occasionally mentors for life. I think that's a game changer. And I think it, to me, it highlights how, you know, Grit is great, and I believe in it, but a gritty person needs, among other things, a mentor.

Lainie Rowell: I really appreciate that. I appreciate you highlighting mentorship and also Jason saying it's a broader view of mentorship. It doesn't have to be like a forever.

Angela Duckworth: Yeah. And by the way, sending an email to ask somebody to be your lifelong mentor is kind of off putting, right?

But if you just ask somebody for advice on one very specific thing where they can be helpful in five minutes, like That's great. And if it's just that five minutes, that's a mentoring moment and maybe you'll end up working on a project. Okay, great. Well, then you'll, you know, have a mentor for a season and then, you know, maybe if the chemistry is right and, you know if things work out, yeah, maybe, maybe it'll end up being a mentorship , for life, but I really truly believe that that is the best advice anybody could give a young person, but maybe, you know, maybe any of us.

Lainie Rowell: I love that. Okay, I know I have to let you go. I just want to say thank you. I really admire and respect. your confident humility, if you will. Like, I know your credentials. I know you have so many reasons to be confident, but the humble is really helpful. And I find that when I see people out there with that confident humility, it makes me trust them even more.

And so I have this deep trust. Like, I believe Angela will tell me the things that she truly believes are important and she's not going to do it in a way like she knows absolutely everything in the world. She's going to tell me the things that she thinks are important.

Angela Duckworth: So, well, I have appreciated that in this conversation I've been able to be you know, candid because, you know, Lainie, when I say that, oh, you know, the second book is, it's just a whole lot harder and I'm, you know, in my own way struggling, I will say thank you for telling me that I am You know, confident and thank you for, you know, saying that I'm humble, but wow, I will tell you that I am human.

And if anybody out there is wondering, like, well, if you're really gritty, do you ever doubt yourself? Like, do you have like a bad day or two or three strung together? Do you ever really have like a crisis of confidence? Like I do. I mean, I really do. So thank you for letting me. You know, share just a little bit of that.

And, you know, hopefully, if things work out the way I hope they do, that we'll have another conversation when this book, which doesn't even have a title, Lainie, like, when it's all, you know, to press.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I would love any conversations with you. And if you ever need just a pep talk, I am here for you.

I will give you my mobile.

Angela Duckworth: I will be there.

Lainie Rowell: I will, because I'm such a huge fan and excited to see whatever come next. No pressure.

Angela Duckworth: Thank you. Okay. To be continued.

Lainie Rowell: To be continued. All right. Thank you, my friends, for listening.

Bonus Episode - 7 Rules of Self-Reliance with Maha Abouelenein

Shownotes:

In this episode, I sit down with communications expert and global strategist, Maha Abouelenein, to dive into her fascinating journey of resilience, adaptability, and self-reliance. From navigating major life transitions to working with global tech giants, Maha shares how the power of storytelling, relationships, and taking initiative can shape both personal and professional success. Listen in to hear her invaluable insights and discover which of her seven rules you’ll focus on first.

About Our Guest:

Maha Abouelenein is a strategic communication expert and entrepreneur with more than three decades of experience. As the CEO and Founder of Digital and Savvy, a global communications consulting firm with offices in the United States and United Arab Emirates, Maha has been instrumental in orchestrating transformations in communication strategies for clients that includes global corporate giants, high-growth startups, sports organizations, top governments, CEOs and high-net-worth individuals.

Book:

7 Rules of Self-Reliance

Thrive Global Article:

7 Rules of Self-Reliance with Maha Abouelenein

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello, friends. I have the distinct honor of welcoming Maha Abouelenein. Maha, thank you for being here. And I'm super excited for people to hear your story.

Maha Abouelenein: Well, thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan of Thrive Global and, you know, everybody has a story with their origins and how it shapes them, which, you know, mine is no different.

I'm born and raised in Minnesota. I grew up 100 percent Egyptian in not a rural town, but a very small town in southern Minnesota. I grew up here, lived here my whole life , high school, undergraduate, master's degree, worked. I worked for General Mills doing sports marketing. I worked at Weber Shandwick as an intern, worked my way up to Account Executive.

And then at 27 years old my mother had multiple sclerosis. At 27 years old, my parents, who had, you know, basically I was born, raised, lived my whole life here, said, we're moving to Egypt. And I'm like, okay. And my mom was very sick and I was taking care of her. And so I'm like, I'm going to come with you.

I'm going to take care of mom. I'm going to move to Egypt with you. I moved to Egypt for personal reasons. Obviously, I went there at 27 years old. So, you know, you're a professional, you're working. I don't have a lot of friends. . I don't have a network. I'm having to find a job.

I don't speak the language. My mother is, is very sick. And you know, I had responsibilities and I moved to Egypt thinking, okay, this is my new life now. And I need to figure out how to build a new life in a new country. You know, I had been to Egypt as a kid growing up for summer vacations and Christmas holidays, but to visit somewhere is very different than to live somewhere and to be there day to day and have to build a life there.

So I had interviewed for different jobs. I'm like, okay, I got to find a job. I'll either work at the P and G's or the Coca Cola's or the Pepsi's, like an American company based in Cairo, or I'm going to work for a local business. And I got offered a job to work for a billionaire who ran a tech company.

And I'm like, oh, that sounds great. And it's like technology. And, you know, he was launching cell phones and was going to launch the internet. And like, this is 1997. So just when all of tech is about to take off. And he offered me a job to be his office manager. And I went home just upset. I'm like, wow, like I don't, I don't know.

I'm like, I have a master's degree. I worked for a Fortune 500 company. I was working for other known brands like General Mills and Wheaties and Betty Crocker and exciting job. And now it's going to be an office manager. And I didn't feel like I was qualified. I was overqualified to be an office manager.

And my dad said to me, listen, you just moved here. You don't know anybody. The office manager in the Middle East is like a chief of staff. And if I were you just put your head down, put in the work and turn it into a role you want it to become and really focus on bringing value for him. And if you do that, then you can ask for a different job or a different role once you've learned the business.

And I didn't have the foresight that he had. And so the next day, much to my chagrin, I went in and I accepted a job as an office manager, essentially a secretary for a billionaire. And it was the best thing that happened to me. I learned how to bring value, how to listen, how to learn. I read every paper going in, every paper going out because I'm like, okay, I have to learn things in order to know where to bring the most value for him.

So I was a student and I was volunteering to do anything I could for him. Anyways, I stayed at that company for several years, working on the largest IPO in the history of Egypt, the largest acquisition in the history of Egypt. I went on to be the head of communications at Google, the head of communications and launched Netflix in the Middle East for five years.

I worked for the ruler of Dubai. I built 18 offices for Weber Shandwick, a global PR firm in the Middle East and was the regional managing director based out of Cairo. And I spent 23 years doing communications and reputation management in the Middle East, for some of the biggest tech companies in the world.

And then. The pandemic hit in 2020. And I was like, I, do I want to be stuck here in Dubai away from my sister and her husband and kids? And my father got ALS and passed away. My mother had MS and passed away. And so I was like, okay, I think I need to make the move and move back to the state. So in 2020, I moved back and built a company during the pandemic, a communications firm.

And I've been for the last four years now here in the U S I still have an office in Dubai, but I help people tell their stories and help build their reputations and their personal brands and learn how to communicate better and I'm having the time of my life.

Lainie Rowell: Well it shows and I just have to say I get to meet a lot of authors and I'm an author myself and I just know that the journey to a book is different for everyone and having the honor and the privilege of getting a sneak peek because we're recording in September and the book comes out October 8th and I got to read Seven Rules of Self Reliance and I have to say that as I'm reading it and I'm hearing your story I've Never come across a story where I'm like, Oh my gosh, this person's whole life was leading up to sharing this message.

Do you know what I mean? Like it just was so true to you to talk about self reliance. And I really want to hear your definition of self reliance because I think people probably have their own ideas about what self reliance is. And feel free to go in the direction of what it's not, if that helps. Because sometimes it's helpful to be like, this is not what I mean.

And so tell us what does self reliance mean ?

Maha Abouelenein: Yeah, I mean, the reason I wrote this book, The Seven Rules of Self Reliance, is it's not about the what. It's not about what I do in communications. And you read the book, so you know a little bit about some of the stories I share in my career to give you real life examples.

It's about the how, how do I do things? How should people think about doing things? So self reliance to me is not about being independent or going alone and not needing anyone. It's the exact opposite. It's about betting on yourself. It's about investing yourself. I don't want to be left behind because I don't know things.

So I want to invest in myself and be a lifelong learner so that I can absorb everything that the market has to offer. And so I feel like. Self reliance is something I just want people to learn because I want them to trust themselves. Too often we're asking for permission from others or we're waiting for other people to decide for us or we're waiting for other people to give us our opportunities.

And what I want people to know because I lived it and I believe it and it's true, if you rely on yourself, that becomes your superpower. That becomes the value that not only you create for yourself, but for other people too. And it's just. a concept that I really want people to embrace and to love.

It's not about being independent or selfish. It's about being valuable and invaluable to others.

Lainie Rowell: I love the idea of it's not about being independent. I'm going to do everything on my own. It's that you have self worth, that you're self confident, and I do a lot of work around gratitude.

And one of the things we say with gratitude is it doesn't mean that you have to be self effacing. Like I never did anything. Everyone's gifted everything to me. Like it can be both. And I think that's an important nuance. It can be, I worked really, really hard. And in your case, I took the job as the office manager, even though it didn't feel like it was a fit for me And then through that other people helped raise you up to other opportunities.

Maha Abouelenein: Somebody who read the book was like, Oh, I read that. I'm like, I need to trust myself more. Like people are often outsourcing things to others that they know what's best for them. They just don't listen to their gut. They don't listen to trust their own intuition, or they don't have the confidence to think, gosh, I don't know if I can do that.

But my question is, why not? Why not you? Why aren't you capable of doing it? You are. You have access to information and guess what? It's free. Everything on the internet is for free. So I feel like there's an enormous opportunity and abundance and having that mindset of thinking, Hey, I can rely on myself to do this, and it, I can also get help from other people who can help me get to the next level.

And I feel like, Asking for help is definitely not a weakness. It's just I want people to know when to practice that. What do I have a high level self awareness of what I know? What am I missing? And how do I get there? And this book gives you the tools for today's world, like a modern playbook for how you can rely on yourself and become powerful.

Lainie Rowell: I mean, as humans, we're meant to be connected, so it can be both.

Maha Abouelenein: Yes. Yes.

\

Lainie Rowell: I have to say, you are easily one of the most hardworking people, and you really give us that motivation, that inspiration to be like, I can do the thing that seems just bananas. I can just go for that and I love that so that's really helpful to me and I think sometimes what is a struggle for people is they see someone like you they see these people who are super successful but they don't see all the work that they had to do to get there and you've got a chapter in the book Stay Low Keep Moving And I'd love for you to talk about that because to me, that's part of it.

It's the part that doesn't get seen, but it's so critical.

Maha Abouelenein: Yeah. I mean, I'm 54. I've been doing this for 30 years, right? Nobody is an overnight success, I have failed multiple times. I have been fired from jobs. I have had my share of setbacks, not just in having to take care of two parents with neurological diseases while I'm trying to find my career and find my voice.

But the reason why I started the first chapter of the book of talking about stay low, keep moving is I had heard that term and then it became a metaphor for my life. So, stay low, keep moving is a military term where you're on your stomach and you're crouching forward to stay low and keep moving so you don't get hit by arsenal.

But the reason why I took it for a metaphor for my life and I made it the first chapter of my book is, I want people to focus on staying low. This doesn't mean stay low profile. It means stay low, like stay focused, put your blinders on. There's so many distractions, social media, friends telling you you can't do it, people who are doubting you, you doubting yourself.

So I'm saying stay low, like just put your head down, put in the work, put in the effort, and try to avoid these distractions. Keep moving. You are gonna face setbacks. You're going to fail. Life is full of challenges. Life is messy. Take a deep breath. regroup and keep moving because I had my share of setbacks in my career and in my life.

And you know what I did? I was like, I just need to win today. I don't need to blow the ocean and overthink it. I'm the queen of overthinking everything. I always like have to take a step back, take a deep breath. What can I work on today? What can I win today? And then try to get to the next day. And that's what makes people successful is when they think of the small steps and the small habits and the small points of progress, knowing that life is going to be its ups and downs.

And that's the premise of stay low and keep moving, because I want people to think it's not all bubble gum and roses. You are going to face setbacks. So you have to make an effort to focus. You have to make an effort to not be distracted because it's like your inbox, for example, If you just sit in front of your inbox all day and field incoming emails, those are priorities that other people have to interrupt your day.

So I always tell my team, like, close your email so you can focus on what you actually need to get done. So that you can work on your priorities because there's going to be constant reminders of other people sending you work on email that may not be your focus or priority for the day. And that's a really good example of staying low.

Like I need to stay focused so I don't get distracted.

Lainie Rowell: Let's talk about other people because one of the other stories that really resonated was you talking about an experience with a client who is reluctant to share information that you needed to effectively tell their story. Yeah. You had to adapt your approach.

And where this really hit for me is I have a background in education, but it doesn't really matter what your role is. I'm thinking like healthcare providers there's just all these different roles where we're here to serve other people and they don't always make it easy for us.

And we have to be adaptable and remove those barriers for them. What advice do you have for people who are practicing self reliance to remove those barriers, not just for ourselves, but for other people.

Maha Abouelenein: So first of all, I love this question. I feel like you need to be curious and know how to ask the right questions, right?

Because if you're going to create value for somebody else, if you have a client that you need to serve, a project you want to tackle, something you want to achieve in your life, you're going to have to start asking your questions. What do I know? What do I need to know? What am I missing? What are the areas where I need to focus my time?

What are the areas where I need to focus my learning or get some skills or acquire some knowledge? So I think it starts with asking the question, and I always encourage people to ask open ended questions. That way you can just feel the answers and sift through it on your own without having to be so specific.

Like if I really don't know what I need, I'm just going to ask an open ended question to see what information they give me. And then build from there. So I think that's a really helpful thing. If people want a chart to figure out, like, if I want to be self reliant, where's the first place to start? It's being curious and trying to acquire knowledge.

Lainie Rowell: In the book you talk a lot about growth mindset and at the end of the book, this is not just to prove that I read every page, but at the end of the book, you do talk about AI and where we're headed with different things. And tell us a little bit about your perspective on growth mindset and why that's so critical with everything we've got coming at us.

Maha Abouelenein: Yeah, I mean, the reason I wrote this book was that times are changing and you need to know how to keep up and be ahead of it, actually. And so the last chapter of the book, after I go through the seven rules, I talk about key things that are on my radar that I want people to know people to really start to think about, and one of them is AI.

So have a sense of curiosity around it. How can it help your business? Don't be intimidated by it. Everyone thought that AI is gonna come and take away jobs. Well, everyone thought that when the internet came out and look what happened? It created enormous amount of jobs. It created e-commerce, it created social media, it created all these digital platforms and apps that we live by now.

We can't even imagine our lives without them today. So I feel like for AI, you got to get curious. You have to learn it, lean into it, start dabbling in it. You know, sometimes we don't like a food until we try it. So like we need to try it to have an opinion about it. So that's the first thing. The second thing I talk a lot about is storytelling.

Like everyone, no matter how much AI or technology is prevalent in our lives, even with social media and the internet, you're never not not need to know how to communicate. Communications is something that will never go out of style. How do you connect with an audience? How do you move someone?

How do you tell a story, whether it's for your business, or for your brand, or for your family member? Knowing how to be a good storyteller is really important. is emotional, but it's also practical. It's something that you need to be doing at work. Like if I'm not good at how I show up at work, I'm not going to get that promotion.

If I'm not good about telling a good story about my accomplishments, I'm not going to get the next project to work on to help move me to the next level. So I feel like understanding what connects us, what moves us, how stories work, how stories communicate and how they carry. I think that's also really key.

Lainie Rowell: And I hear you saying really storytelling is a part of our well being. Is that fair to say?

Maha Abouelenein: Yeah. And I talk a lot about the most important story is the one you tell yourself. Like how much are you in tune with who you are and what your purpose is and what you stand for? How much are you using your gifts?

So many people have unique talents and gifts, but they're not doing it. And the reason they're not doing it is because they're afraid what people will think. Well, that's a terrible way to live. Like I'm afraid of putting myself out there on social media because I don't want people to think, well, who does she think she is?

You know, you have unique talents and skills. Share it. You don't have to do it through social media. You can do it one to one with your neighbors in your community. But I just feel like so many people are sitting on your unique talents and aren't using it. And I feel like that's such a big opportunity for us.

And it makes me excited to think about if someone reads this book as an inspired, you know, to start telling stories or to help somebody with a skill that they have, then that just is, is worth every ounce for me. And I just, I feel like people should be empowered to do it because we're only on this planet for so long. So go ahead and not sit back on your talents.

Lainie Rowell: When I see someone who is such a high performer like you, I have to ask them how do you navigate not getting burnt out? Maybe you do and you shift out of it.

How are you managing stress?

Maha Abouelenein: You know what, it's a lot, it's self awareness, so knowing myself, like, what stresses me out, what do I know when I've had too much, and I, I really focus on my time management, like, a lot, like, I have no meeting Wednesdays, where I don't do calls and meetings on Wednesdays, because I want to make sure I have a day to focus and think and strategize or plan.

I'm very active in sports, either playing sports or going to sports. I enjoy going to sporting events. I feel like I know what recreation fills my cup. I spend an enormous time with other people. Relationships are the connective tissue that I thrive on. And so either my friends, my family, and I book things, like I make those plans.

And I also take time off to do nothing. scheduling time to really decompress, step away from my computer, take those vacations, go on a daily walk, that's like my non negotiable, I have to do that every day, and so it's just having that barometer. Okay, I do get stressed out I know I have a one of the things I do with me and my team is we do this thing where we do this exercise where we ask each other, okay, what drains you?

I need to know from my team members what drains them. So I know when they've had too much or what they're like when they're stressed out. And then when they came to ask me, they're like, what drains you? I'm like, traveling, traveling too much, traveling back to back. takes me away from my dog, takes me away from home cooked meals, takes me away from my workouts, takes me away from my bed.

So I want to make sure that I ask myself the same questions I ask my team members to make sure like we have to take that temperature so that we know there are going to be times when we're stressed and there's going to be times when we can like take a step back. And so it's really, really important as an executive, as a leader, as a daughter, as an aunt, as a sister, that I'm, I'm doing all those things to make sure that I can keep myself sane.

And to be a value creator for other people and contributor, I got to take care of myself first.

Lainie Rowell: I think it's really thoughtful to ask what drains you, rather than assuming we know what drains people. I mean, I could see someone taking something off of a teammate's plate because they feel like, oh, this is probably burning them.

But maybe that was actually what was driving them. Maybe that was what got them out of bed in the morning and got them excited. So I love this very intentional, what drains you. And then not that we can always take it off their plate, obviously, but if there's ways that we can help maneuver it. So for you, if it's travel, maybe there's ways that we can be more strategic about the trips.

I mean, I'm on a plane a lot. I know how draining it is. It's not as glamorous as it looks.

Maha Abouelenein: I did a stint between end of May and I was like five weeks. I was on the road every week in a different, and I was like, London, Toronto, Sweden, like back. I'm like, it's great.

Those are important events and I need to do them. But also what's the toll that that takes on time with my team, time with my family. time on my health. So just making sure that you think about those things. And so I try to plan it in spurts and be better about it. And I think just also asking team members, like, how do I know when you're stressed?

I disappear. I go underwater. I panic. I reach for help. I go underwater and I don't ask for help. You need to know, you need to know as a leader. One, you need to be an empathetic leader to understand what makes your team pulse and what do they like, but you also need to know, so when you see the signs, you can step in to support them so that if they're stressed, they're not probably going to ask for it.

Lainie Rowell: And I also appreciate you sharing some of the ways that you're recharging physically, intellectually, socially. I heard you talking about the no Meeting Wednesdays which is so lovely and for anyone that can actually make that happen in their work situation, even if it's just an afternoon of no meetings, I think that really helps us get into flow, which for me is a super important thing.

I just don't think I can get to the next level of performing if I don't get at least a little bit of time to get into flow. And then you also said the just being, which is like, We're human beings, right? What's that saying? We're human beings, not human doing. So give yourself some time for that.

Maha Abouelenein: Exactly. I also think a lot about my calendar, like my mornings.

I try not to book meetings in the mornings because I also think when am I most productive? My creative writing or thinking, I like to work out first thing in the morning to send a signal to myself that my priority is my health first and

foremost. And so obviously I do a lot of early morning calls with Dubai or the Middle East, but I don't do them every single day so that I can have those mornings to do things.

So I try to plan. I mean, best case scenario. So I can have at least four of my mornings free to do that thinking time. Cause I know when I'm most productive and more effective, I can't do writing like a strategic or hardworking things in the afternoon.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, and yes, the working with different time zones, I mean, if you're not really careful with that, you can end up being up very early, staying into the middle of the night, like, it's really, really hard, so I feel you on that too. I want to give you an opportunity, what is something that either you can't share enough, or something that you haven't had a chance to share before and you're just like, I really want to make sure people hear.

Maha Abouelenein: Easy. Easy. Okay. Can't share enough. The importance of your personal brand and your reputation. So let me explain. You've probably heard a lot of people talk about, I need to build my personal brand, my personal brand. And they think your personal brand is like, being a social media influencer. And what I'm trying to help people get their arms around and their head around is that personal brand equals reputation.

So you need to be obsessed with your reputation. So your reputation is what people say about you, obviously, when you're not in the room, but you can have the best sales, the best marketing, the best supply chain, the best pricing, the best product or service, but if you don't have a good reputation, no one will want to work with you.

Right? So I want people to think a lot about investing in their personal brand. If you have a social media account, you are a personal brand. If you have a job, you have a personal brand. It's how you show up at work. It's how your manager sees you. It's how your coworkers see you. What do you want them to know about you?

How do you show up on Zoom calls? What does your personal brand say about you? And that's why I think if I reframe it, instead of saying personal brand, calling it reputation, then of course, everybody cares about the reputation. No one's going to say, sign me up. I don't care about my reputation. So I think paying attention to your reputation and being intentional about it is key, especially in today's world.

And, you know, personal brand for me is not about personal life. It's not about sharing everything you're doing, where you're going, all your vacation pictures, your personal life, your children, your family. It's really about what is your story, what is your message, what is your narrative. Your personal brand is kind of made up of three things.

It's your skills, your experiences and your your personality. So what is it that I want people to know about me? I play tennis. I am a dog mom. I love communications. I grew up in Egypt, but I also want people to see the business stuff. Like, how do you do communications and personal branding and media training?

So I feel like Everyone should think about like, what do I stand for? How do people see me? And I feel like because of the internet and there's a lot of messages and if you're not doing it, somebody else will do it for you. So take the proactive step of building a personal brand that you're proud of, because that's how you want to represent yourself, whether you're an entrepreneur.

You need to build your personal brand because people follow people. They don't follow companies. And so are you a thought leader? Do you want to put things out on LinkedIn? Do you want to speak on stages? Do you want to speak in your local community? It doesn't necessarily have to be online. And I feel like in fact, your offline reputation is more important.

Like how do you treat your customers? How do you treat your employees? How do you treat your team members? That's what I mean when I say people get on this bandwagon of investing in your personal brand because it is so valuable, not only for you and your career, but for your reputation.

Lainie Rowell: Thousand percent. As you're listing off all these different, whatever your role in the world is, I think about yesterday was the first day of school for my kids and the personal brand, AKA reputation of the teachers. They're going to. be in a classroom with six hours a day, five days a week for 180 some odd days, it matters.

Luckily, their teachers are amazing and they went in knowing that these were good people. But if that was not the case for these kids to walk in, that's a lot to overcome. It's so much harder. It's harder to rebrand or redo that reputation if you can just stay in front of it like you're talking about and be proactive about it.

That's just such the better way to do it.

Maha Abouelenein: Yeah. And I think it's for a lot of like business leaders when I talk to them about, building their personal brands, like they don't want to start with zero followers or they don't want to put themselves out there. And there's so many ways you can build your personal brand without having to be your face on a video or creating content yourself.

If you like to write, maybe write a blog post or an article. If you like to speak in public and meet with people face to face instead of doing it digitally, there's so many ways you can build your reputation and your personal brand, but it's something that you need to do over time, right? So think of like the companies or businesses that you admire.

You admire them over time because they built up that goodwill, that good reputation, that airline that always delivers, the brand that always is there for you, is sturdy and durable. That's how you build a reputation. It's, it's putting in the reps over time. If you didn't, you already start building your reputation, there's not too late.

You just need to try to figure out, okay, what am I willing to do that's going to help me put my best foot forward and making sure that I'm doing that. And then just be consistent about it.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. Well, I am super excited for Seven Rules of Self Reliance to drop. People are listening to this on the podcast or reading the article in Thrive Global, it has already dropped and I will make sure that there is a link in the show notes or a link in the article so you all can grab your copy. I mean, first of all, Maha, your life is just fascinating. Like, just, Full stop, right? But also the wisdom and the practical, tactical strategies that you give us are so helpful.

And you know, you're a great storyteller and we learn through stories. You do a beautiful job of that. So I'm excited for this.

Maha Abouelenein: I love it. So in every chapter, this is a playbook. Like I said, in every chapter, there's takeaways for like a chapter summary, but there's reflection exercises so you can put these rules to work for you.

So when I teach you about being a lifelong learner, that's one of the rules. Like, how do we learn today? What are the resources I should go to learn? What are some of the ways I can do that and how can I be a lifelong learner? You get a playbook for that. There's a whole playbook on how to build your personal brand.

My favorite chapter in the book has to do with being a long term player and that is about putting deposits in other people's trust banks and by that I mean relationships. We live and die by our relationships. I want to work hard and teach people how to build their own networks and their own relationships.

How do you master the art of a DM on LinkedIn? How do you DM somebody on Instagram that you want to do business with? What's the best way for me to build my own network and relationships? So if I need something, I don't really need to rely on you,, to say, Hey, can you ask one of your friends to do a favor for me, or to help me with an opportunity with a client.

I want to have all the cards in my hands and those cards are skills, experiences, and relationships. And relationships are key. What if we happen to have another pandemic and you need to do something and call on someone in your network to help you? So building up the skill of how to go into a room and meet people and walk out with every business card, how to show up on a zoom call and network with other people, how to go to an event and make the most of that event. So you can build relationships. How to build a relationship with someone if you wanna be a speaker or a moderator, you gotta build a relationship first. So how do you do that? You bring value to them. So that's also in the book. And I feel like the practical experiences and the playbook on how to network especially remotely is invaluable.

And so many people have tried what I've taught here and, and it works.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. , like I said, I'll make sure the link to the book is in the show notes and the article. I would love for you to just share with people what is the best way for them to connect with you and your work.

Maha Abouelenein: Okay. First of all, I have a Facebook group called Seven Rules where I do free masterclasses and workshops. So I'd love everyone to join me on that Facebook group. They can go to my website. Mahaabouelenein.com/ or follow me on Instagram @Mahagaber..

Lainie Rowell: We will be looking for this to be in the hands of as many people as possible.

We know it's going to do great things. And Maha, I just really thank you for your time here.

Maha Abouelenein: Thank you so much. And I'm curious, which seven rule Are you going to start to practice today?

Lainie Rowell: Oh, that's such a good one. I do think that the one that I feel like I am good at but need to get better at is the stay low, keep moving I just think there's a lot that comes at us and it's very easy to lead a distracted life So how can you really stay focused and it's something i'm typically good at, but something has been slipping a little bit lately.

So

Maha Abouelenein: Seven Rules of Self Reliance. I'm excited for everyone to get their hands on it and give me feedback on which is their favorite rule and which one they're going to tackle first.

Lainie Rowell: All right. Thank you all for listening.

And again, Maha, thank you so much for being here.

Maha Abouelenein: Thank you for having me.

Episode 107 - Overcoming the Challenges of Change with Guest Katy Milkman

Shownotes:

In this episode, I sit down with the renowned behavioral scientist Katy Milkman to explore why change is so hard and how we can make it easier. Katy shares her insights on the psychological barriers to change and reveals practical strategies, like fresh starts, temptation bundling, and commitment devices, that can help us achieve our goals. Join us for an engaging conversation packed with actionable tips to transform your approach to change and make lasting improvements in your life. Don't miss out on these valuable insights from one of the leading experts in the field!

About Our Guest:

Dr. Katy Milkman is a renowned behavioral scientist and professor at The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. She hosts the popular podcast Choiceology and co-directs the Behavior Change for Good Initiative which she co-founded. Katy has worked with or advised numerous organizations on behavior change, including The White House, Google, Walmart, Humana, the U.S. Department of Defense, 24 Hour Fitness, and the American Red Cross. She is the author of the bestselling book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be and has published extensively in leading academic journals. Katy also frequently writes for major media outlets such as The New York Times and The Washington Post.

Thrive Global Article:

Katy Milkman on Overcoming the Challenges of Change

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

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Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello, friends. Welcome. I am talking to the amazing Dr. Katy Milkman, and she gave me permission to call her Katy, so, hi, Katy. Thank you so much for being here.

Katy Milkman: Thanks so much for having me, Lainie.

Lainie Rowell: I shared this before we hit record, but I cannot share it enough.

I love your book, How to Change the Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be. I read it about two years ago. And what I love is the strategies are just so practical, actionable, tactical, all the words. And I want to get into the specifics as much as you're willing to share, but first, can you tell us why change is so hard?

Katy Milkman: No, that's a fantastic question. And,. I wouldn't be in business. I wouldn't be wouldn't be studying this topic if it were easy. I wouldn't have written a book about it and we're in a research center on it. Changes are for a lot of reasons.

I think the most fundamental is that we are as humans evolved to be creatures of habit, to stick with comfortable routines for all sorts of reasons that make sense. If you think about what makes for a stable, good life, but it can be a barrier in the context where you want to make an adjustment.

So we, for instance, find any change feels like a loss relative to our present state, and losses tend to loom large, and that makes us avoidant of change. Habits are the systems or routines that we put on autopilot that make it easy for us to go through life without having to think through every decision we make, and they make us resistant to change because now you have to do something effortful instead of sticking with the path of least resistance.

We are also generally wired to prefer instant gratification over long term delayed rewards, which again, you can see, thinking back to our ancestors, why that's a great strategy, right? If you don't know when your next meal is going to come from or where your next opportunity to mate might arise, you should take advantage when you have the opportunity.

That's how we survive and procreate. And yet, those instincts do not serve us so well when we want to make a change because most change requires overriding what's instantly gratifying and thinking about the long term rewards that we will achieve if we can, say, exercise or study harder. So all of these features of our minds make change extra hard.

And we haven't even touched on, of course, all the structural barriers, right? What the world does to us when we try to change. Just the internal barriers, the way we humans are built, are, are plenty of a challenge. And then you can throw in more.

Lainie Rowell: That is a lot of reasons why it's hard to change. And I can see from an evolutionary standpoint a lot of the reasons.

I can understand the efficiency of it. I don't think it ever hit me the way it just did when you talked about we feel it like a loss, and that's like a really emotional thing to be thinking about, right?

Katy Milkman: Absolutely. You know, it's really interesting. So we recently actually lost one of the most important figures in my field, Danny Kahneman, the great behavioral economist and author of the bestselling, mega bestselling book, Thinking Fast and Slow.

And one of his major contributions, besides sort of teaching us that people are poor intuitive statisticians, was to teach us that losses tend to loom larger than gains, that people are very sensitive to anything that feels like a loss, about twice as sensitive by some estimates, although it certainly varies depending on the context.

But that means, you know, if you find 20 in the morning and you lose it in the evening, you're going to be much, much more unhappy than you would have been if there had never been 20 in your life at all, which is peculiar because you end the day in the same state you started it. But this tendency to find loss is extremely painful, excruciating even, is really a barrier to change because change is all about losing who you were, and shifting to a new path, and the fact that those kinds of adjustments are costly psychologically is, is an important part of why we often don't take the leap.

Lainie Rowell: Well, you've set me up perfectly to talk about your podcast, Choiceology, which the reason I made that connection is because you did a beautiful tribute to Daniel Kahneman when you replayed an episode from him on your podcast.

And so I know he was an important person in your life. And I would just love if you could just kind of quickly tell us about choiceology and how that kind of fits in with your work.

Katy Milkman: Yeah, well, one of my favorite things about the research I do is sharing the insights from the amazing scholars out there that are relevant and practical to our everyday decisions.

So I teach an MBA class at the Wharton School that's all about improving our decisions and about six years ago, I had the opportunity to take over hosting a podcast called Choiceology that Charles Schwab creates that focuses each episode on one decision bias that everyone should know about. Sort of telling a story to illustrate why it's so important and then talking to the scientist who did the original research to dig into, you know, what's going on?

What are the findings? How do we know this is true? What can we do about it? And it has been so much fun. We make 12 episodes a year. They're really heavily produced in a way that makes them, I think, tremendously fun to listen to. I have an amazing team behind the scenes that does that.

And every episode is teaching you something new. And I'm learning so much. It's one of my favorite things I've ever done because it gives me this excuse to call up the scientists doing the work that I think is most important, most relevant and hop on a call with them for 30 or 45 minutes to have a conversation about how they probed this bias or a problem, whether it's, you know, why people are overconfident or how can we achieve our goals more successfully by breaking them down into bite sized parts?

We just did one on something called the realization effect, which shows that we think differently about risks when we have actually just realized a loss, meaning, you know, it's no longer a paper loss, but we sold the stock at a loss.

Now it's realized and now we make very different decisions and are less willing to take risks than we would be if we were still in the middle of it. So some of the effects are subtle, some of them are massive, and we, we dive into the science.

Lainie Rowell: You and your team do a beautiful job, it is well produced, and I did just listen to the Realization episode, and what I love as part of that highly well produced episode is that you bring in things like the Revolutionary War, and how George Washington was leading, and the choices that he made, to be successful.

Not that he was successful every time, like in a battle, but the choices that he made that were counterintuitive or against what would have been the norm at that time, and it is what led to his success. So I love the nuance, I love how practical it is, and I thank you for bringing in other scholars who have practical information.

Katy Milkman: It's such a joy to make and it's so fun to get that feedback. So thank you for the kind words, I appreciate it.

Lainie Rowell: I tend to think about how, for myself, there is this aspirational self, the things that I would love to do, and then, then there's my actual self, which is, the things that I, maybe do that are not going to lead to the things that I want.

So it's like, do I read the book that I am so excited to read? Or do I binge watch Netflix? I'm excited to read the book, but that's going to be more work. And we know that I'm going to be happier reading the book. The evidence is very clear on that, but what are some of the strategies to overcome,? We want to get to that long term goal. How do I get past that short term, "I don't want to do this"?

Katy Milkman: Yeah, no, it's such an important question. I think the most important insight in the research on this topic comes from Islet Fischbach at the University of Chicago and her collaborator, Caitlin Woolley at Cornell. And they've done some really, I think, counterintuitive work showing that most of us think when we have a goal and it feels tough, we just need to push our way through, use willpower, if it's effortful, you know, no pain, no gain, right?

We all know, just do it, Nike. These are the slogans we grow up with that are just telling us it's good to do goal pursuit, even when it's painful, in the most efficient way possible. And what they've shown is that that's what we think, and it's wrong. The better way to pursue our goals is actually not the most effortful, painful way, but rather by trying to figure out how can we make it more fun.

Now, very few people naturally take that approach, but when we are encouraged to pursue our goals in ways that are more fun, as opposed to the most efficient way possible, we actually see greater results, and the reason is that people persist longer when they enjoy goal pursuit. Think about this in the context of gym attendance, which I think is like sort of the most, the most common thing that people do.

It's a very intuitive goal. Lots of people have wanted to exercise more and know that it's kind of painful to do it. You could think about what's the most efficient path to getting fit, if that's really what your objective is. And it'd probably be some very painful workout, maybe like, you know, Stairmaster at maximal resistance, like going as fast as you can.

Lainie Rowell: Steep incline. Yeah.

Katy Milkman: Exactly. Right. So that, that's going to be really efficient. And a lot of people are going to say, okay, I want to get fit as efficiently as possible. That's what I'm going to do. The alternative though, might be to focus on how could I have fun getting fit? And there you take a very different path.

You might go to Zumba classes with a friend and you can pretty quickly see, as you start thinking about it, which of those people is going to be more likely to return to the gym for a second visit after their first, right? The one who has this miserable experience on the Stairmaster is going to dread their workouts forever after and likely won't show up again.

So maybe they got a little closer to their fitness goal in that one workout because it was such a great workout, but it's the last workout they'll ever do. The person who goes to Zumba classes with their friend, they probably have a good time. It's really likely that they'll persist. And it turns out most of goal success is about persistence.

There are some goals that really just take one action, right? You got to go get your colonoscopy. Do it, right? But, but most of these things require showing up time and again and so try and figure out how do you make the experience more pleasant, either by choosing a different path or you can use a strategy I have studied, which is called temptation bundling, where you literally engineer the experience to be more fun by combining something that you find tempting and enjoyable with what would otherwise be a chore.

So imagine you still get on that Stairmaster, maybe you don't set it to the toughest incline possible, but you might let yourself binge watch the latest episodes of Bridgerton while you're on the Stairmaster, right? And now instead of being a purely miserable experience, there's something a little bit joyful about it.

And in fact, maybe you won't even notice the pain so much while you're enjoying all the plot twists. If you only allow yourself, by the way, to enjoy binge watching your favorite shows while, say, exercising, now you're going to start craving trips to the gym to find out what happens next. And this is another way you can make it fun to pursue your goals.

It's not just relevant at the gym, but we've done research in that context showing that by giving people a chance to temptation bundle, it can increase exercise.

Lainie Rowell: I'll confess, there was no way I was going to let you off of this interview without talking about Temptation Bundling.

It is absolutely the strategy, out of all the habit forming, out of all the change theory, it is the strategy that has helped me the most in my life. Truly transformative. Like, I'm not just saying that because we're talking right now.

And when I tell people about it, they go, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. What was the title of the study? It had Hunger Games in it. It was so good.

Katy Milkman: Yeah. Our first research study on temptation bundling was called Holding the Hunger Games Hostage at the Gym. Because we invited people to choose content that they would find tempting and then told them we would lock it at the gym.

They'd only be able to access it after watching the beginning if they showed back up at the gym to work out again. And so we were literally holding these temptations in locked, monitored lockers. And we gave people a set of like 82 sources of entertainment to pick from, you know, the Da Vinci Code, The Hunger Games, et cetera.

And The Hunger Games was by far the most popular. And it worked beautifully so we felt that it deserved prominence in the title of the research paper. But I do want to just mention that, while Hunger Games is a great thing to temptation bundle with exercise, whether you prefer the book or the audiobook or the movie adaptation, there are lots of other settings outside of workouts where we can temptation bundle, and I think using this tool to help people exercise, it's very natural, and it's where we've done a bunch of the research on it, but it's actually a very useful tool anytime there's something that feels like a chore or a burden to you.

Not everything can be temptation bundled, but many things can, right? If you find it a little bit unpleasant to prep fresh meals for your family, say, but you'd like to do more of it, imagine you only let yourself listen to your favorite podcast while you're prepping those fresh meals. Or maybe there's a special bottle of wine you only get to open while you're doing that meal prep.

You can think about, you know, household chores. Maybe there's a. Spotify station you particularly love and you only get to listen to it when you are folding laundry or ironing or vacuuming. At work you could think about maybe there's a difficult employee who you should spend more time mentoring. Well, how are you gonna motivate yourself to do what feels like a chore?

You might consider making those mentoring meetings over lunch at a restaurant whose food you really crave and shouldn't eat too much of but what can you add that adds delight and temptation to what would otherwise feel like a burden and be put off? My students, I often talk about, you know, maybe you need to hit the books at the library.

Is there a Starbucks beverage you really crave? Or maybe you have another favorite coffee shop. What if you only let yourself pick that up on these occasions when you're heading to hit the books? So I think it's important to realize while it's particularly well suited and well proven to help us in the context of exercise.

Once you understand that part of why we don't pursue our goals and get chores done is because they aren't enjoyable enough and that we can engineer solutions to this by linking temptations, it opens up a whole host of possible ways to be more effective.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. I love how you're engineering the delight, right?

Why do we bring more delight into our lives? So let's engineer it that way. And. I want to talk about Fresh Starts, but first, you've kind of given me this segue to talk about confidence and expectations. So, from your book How to Change, you write, Our expectations shape our outcomes. How we think about something affects how it is.

And, I have to tell you, there's an example in the book where you talk about the housekeepers. And, I'll let you explain that. And I'm just going to tell you that I tell myself to engage the core while I'm doing housework now, thanks to you. So,

Katy Milkman: Well, now everyone's going to think it's an exercise book because we're coming to all the exercise examples.

But this is one of my favorite stories too. I really love this research. It was done by Stanford's Allie Crum and Ellen Langer at Harvard. And they have this, really fantastic insight that a pretty commonly and widely understood effect is much broader than we think it is. And that's the placebo effect.

So probably most of your listeners have heard of the placebo effect. It is where we have a prescription that we receive from a doctor. They give you, Hey, you know, this'll help with your headache. It's just a sugar pill, but it actually makes you feel better because your doctor prescribed it. And so you expect it to work.

And so you notice that you're feeling better even if you might not have noticed that had you not had the expectation. So placebo effects are huge and amazing, but most people think of them as limited to medicine. And what Ellen and Aaliyah realized is that actually, placebo effects are everywhere.

When we have an expectation, it shapes the way we experience the world. And they have this really lovely study that takes it outside of the medical domain and into the context of housekeepers working at hotels. They're either just sort of going about their business and encouraged to keep doing so, or they're randomly assigned to be reminded of something that is absolutely true, which is that the work they do each day is meeting the CDC's recommended exercise regimen. So by vacuuming, by changing sheets, by scrubbing floors, they are getting healthy physical activity that's great for them. So some people are reminded of this and some aren't, and then the question is, when you're reminded of the fact that your work is a workout, does it change the way you do your work and does it change your outcomes?

Because now you're thinking differently about this exercise. You're thinking of it as an opportunity to obtain physical activity and benefits for yourself versus just as a job that pays the bills. And what they find in their research is that the housekeepers who are given this information are reminded of something they may not have even known in the first place, which is that there's this ancillary benefit that they're getting exercise on the job.

They lean into it, right? Of course, they're probably choosing to take the stairs now. They're not sitting on the bed while they vacuum, but. pushing their energy into it, just be as, as I do. You mentioned that this has affected the way you think about...

Lainie Rowell: Engage the core.

Katy Milkman: That's right. It's an opportunity. Like I eagerly run up and down the stairs in my townhouse now to do my laundries, like an opportunity to get more steps and exercise. Once you frame it to yourself as this, as this benefit you're obtaining and it changes your attitude, changes your mindset. Of course, the, the big finding is that the outcomes are different.

So a month later, the housekeepers who've been reminded about these exercise benefits have experienced them. So they've lost weight, their blood pressure has improved, and so on. And it's just a really nice illustration of the fact that when we think about things differently, it changes our behavior and changes our outcomes.

And we have to be aware of that. It, it, it can be used, it can be weaponized and be used against us. But it can also be used as a tool when we want to change our behavior in positive ways.

Lainie Rowell: Well, and I appreciate you pointing out, this is not all about exercise, the book is about getting from where you are to where you want to be, and you're probably getting a peek into maybe something that I struggle to do, based on the examples that I'm pulling from, so maybe, maybe that's coming through.

Katy Milkman: No, me too, I use a lot of these tools for exercise, but also for learning foreign languages, and being more productive at work, and being a better parent, and a better boss and mentor and on all these things. So I think one of the most important things to recognize about all these tools is that they're very adaptable to whatever your goals may be. And there's not sort of a prescription for a specific objective, rather a set of tools that can help with whatever it is you want to achieve.

Lainie Rowell: And I'll share an example of how I do that. So for temptation bundling, yes, it definitely is I don't get to listen to podcasts unless I'm at the gym, but it's also pretty much, I don't get to listen to podcasts unless I'm doing something I don't want to be doing.

So, for example, I don't like to fold laundry. So I say, okay, well, I can listen to podcasts if I'm at the gym, if I'm folding laundry, if I'm cleaning out a closet, it's this, it's like, I have a list of stuff that I don't want to do, but needs to be done. It's like my temptation bundling task list. And so...

Katy Milkman: I love that.

Lainie Rowell: I get to listen to the podcast because I listen to a ton of podcasts, but I only get to do it when I'm doing something else. It's a huge efficiency hack for me.

Katy Milkman: I'm so glad it's been helpful to you. It's been very helpful for me too. And I hope it'll be helpful to your listeners.

Lainie Rowell: I think it will be. It's one that I love to share. Let's talk a little bit about fresh starts, because I think this is a really interesting, you know, when we're talking about confidence and expectations and kind of how, just how you approach it. I think fresh starts is a great example of how important your mindset is.

Katy Milkman: Absolutely. Yeah. So this is something that I got interested in and started studying almost 15 years ago now, as a result of a visit I made to Google's headquarters in Mountain View, California, they were having a big gathering to talk about various challenges that the company was trying to tackle, particularly in the human resources space.

And they brought in a bunch of academics and other HR professionals to swap stories, share ideas and I gave a presentation about some of my research. In fact, I mentioned some of the early work we'd done on temptation bundling. I was trying to offer tools, nudges, that they could think about deploying to help employees achieve various goals.

From exercising more, to saving more, to taking more of the classes and enrichment programming that was being offered, but that not everyone was adopting. And I got this fantastic question in the Q& A portion after my presentation, which was, okay, Katy sold on the fact that some of these tools that you've been studying and others are studying, we should deploy them to try to encourage better decisions by our employees. We should roll out temptation bundling facilitation in our gyms, for instance, but the question was, is there some ideal time? Is there a time of year, a time in a person's life, when they're going to be more open to adopting change and when these tools might be particularly valued and when we should try to push them and put them in front of people?

Are there, are there good moments for this? And it was such a fantastic question to me because there's a whole lot of research that had been done on how do we help people set goals? What is the scaffolding we can provide so they'll achieve their goals, but not much about when should they set goals and, and when should we communicate with them and give them these tools and coaching and so on.

And I immediately had a very strong intuition, which was that we knew at the start of a new year, there's this huge uptick in goal pursuit, right? First of all, I'm sure many people read a story about it every New Year's and talk to their friends about it and set resolutions.

40 percent of Americans do this. I get phone calls from reporters every December when they're writing their annual New Year's resolution story. Oh, what can you help? You know, you study motivation and change. Everybody's gonna need your help on January 1st. So, there's this crazy boom. And I'd always been curious about sort of what drives that besides the fact that now it's a ritual.

But of course we know one of the things that drives it is this reset of the calendar, right? The beginning of a new year gives us a sense that we can start over. That last year, whatever goals we didn't achieve, that was the old me, this is the new me, the new me will be different. And of course, recognizing that New Year's is a big moment to motivate change isn't terribly original, but what my collaborators and I started exploring was whether there was a broader set of dates and moments that have the same features as New Year.

So this is work joined with Hengchen Dai of UCLA who my former student, who I'm very proud is now a tenured professor there, in part based on her leadership on these projects, where we sort of started enumerating all of the moments that feel like new beginnings and that show the same pattern. So we have studies showing that people at the start of a new week, at the start of a new month, at the start of a new calendar year, of course, following the celebration of holidays that we think of as fresh starts.

So think Memorial Day and Labor Day, much more so than maybe Valentine's Day for most people has a fresh start feeling, birthdays. Hengchen has done some really nice work showing just performance tracking resets at work, right? If you have quarterly goals, for instance at the end of those quarters feels like a, a fresh start.

And so any evaluation period, any promotion, these are the kinds of new beginnings that change our behavior. So we've shown that people set more goals on popular goal setting websites at these times. They naturally search for the most popular New Year's resolution, which is unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your perspective, but I would say, unfortunately diet, that is most searched for at these fresh start moments.

People go to the gym more at these fresh start moments and the other thing we found is that not only does it happen spontaneously that people pursue change, but we wanted to answer the question I'd originally been asked. And we looked at could we actually encourage change more effectively if we suggested it surrounding these special time points rather than arbitrary dates.

When you highlight that a date has fresh sharp properties, it becomes much more attractive as a moment to make a change.

On any goal you're pursuing, but also in one really large experiment we showed, you could use this to increase people's saving rates. People. are more willing to open and start putting money in retirement savings accounts when you invite them to do so after the start of spring, after an upcoming birthday than on other arbitrary future dates or equidistant moments.

So that was a long answer, but that's a fresh short effect and what we know about it in a nutshell. And I think it's really useful to be aware of both to encourage change in others, because this suggests when you may want to reach out to a friend or a family member or a, a mentee at work and say, Hey, you know, here's a resource that might be helpful, or here's a suggestion for how you might pursue change.

It also suggests when you may want to put a commitment on your calendar to begin something new, because you'll likely feel more open to making that kind of change at some moments than others.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I think the psychological do over is very motivating. And for me, what just gets me excited is that.

It's not just New Year's Day. We can find these fresh starts and I do tend to use Monday mornings as a fresh start. Like if last week, sorry to bring it back to exercise, but you know, if last week was not my best week for getting into the gym, it's okay. This week I can just tell myself and I've become pretty good at just saying like, Monday's a fresh start.

I can do it. And having a more often fresh start has really been helpful.

Katy Milkman: Yeah, I love that. And I agree. I think it's important not to like wait every year for New Year's before you begin again on a goal. We have done some research showing you can't manufacture them completely out of thin air. So that is one mistake people sometimes make is they think, oh, I'm just gonna call today a fresh start.

And that doesn't seem to work. It needs to be something that has an intuitive sense of fresh start in people's minds already, but Mondays are one of the big ones, and they come about, it turns out, quite regularly, so thinking about those as opportunities to make a change is a great takeaway.

Lainie Rowell: Well, and I love how you said in the workplace, we can find something on our calendar that for our team would signify a fresh start. And so something that isn't just maybe as powerful to me, but something that our whole team would be like, okay, this is the start of a new quarter, or this is the start of a project or something like that.

So I think that's really helpful.

Katy Milkman: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting, some of the things that already exist, there's a lot of things that are already out there from religion, of course, has all sorts of cleansing rituals and, and new beginnings. But also at work, you think about something like a sabbatical or a retreat.

And part of the function of those things is to get us to step back from the day in, day out and create a little bit of a sense of a new beginning when you return because things have shifted. So it's interesting to reflect on a lot of the ways that some of the science that we've done is already being reflected in best practices.

And then think how can we do even more? How can we adopt these insights to make things even better?

Lainie Rowell: Okay. I have to ask you about commitment devices because when you started talking about this in the book, I was like, Oh man , this works for me. I love a good commitment device.

This podcast, I do a lot of commitment device stuff on this podcast where I say something and I feel like once I put it out to my audience, best do it. Cause the shame if I didn't, I know that word's ugly for some, but the reality is I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do it. So. What about the commitment devices do we need to know?

Katy Milkman: Yeah, so first of all, commitment devices are tools that we use to constrain our future selves. And this can be very counterintuitive to people, right? So we're very used to having a teacher or a boss or even the government create constraints so that we won't act in ways that are harmful.

Right? We get speeding tickets, you're gonna be fined if you give into the temptation to speed or here's a deadline and if you break it, you won't get this promotion. So we're used to it being imposed on us by a third party. But what's confusing about a commitment device is it's essentially doing that to yourself, , right?

So it's self imposing some cost. If you don't hit a deadline, achieve a goal, if you don't show up and give it your best. And it seems strange, why would I handcuff myself? And yet in many contexts, it's, it's incredibly powerful. So we talked a little bit earlier about how important when there's a long term goal, we might give into impulsivity.

We care a lot about what's instantly gratifying. So let's make it more fun to pursue our goals. And a commitment device is essentially the opposite. If that's the carrot approach to motivating behavior change in a situation where I might not be motivated enough, the commitment device is the stick.

For instance, you could literally put money on the line that you say you'll forfeit if you fail to let's say quit smoking in six months. And actually there's a really wonderful randomized controlled trial showing that giving people an opportunity to put money on the line that they will have to forfeit if they don't pass a urine test for nicotine or codonine in six months is more effective for helping people quit smoking than any standard smoking cessation tools.

So you compare the standard smoking cessation options with those plus this commitment device. It's actually not really a head to head. It's sort of adding this on top. It leads to a 30 percent increase in quit rates. And so it's a really powerful tool. Another study I love shows that if people are given an opportunity to put money in a savings account that they cannot access until they reach a predetermined savings goal or date, about 30 percent realize this is a good idea and will put money in that account even though it has no better interest rate than a standard liquid account, but people see, oh, it might be good to not be able to dip into savings when I'm tempted.

And just having access to such account increases savings 80 percent year over year in one randomized controlled trial. So, Commitment devices are these tools that constrain us. They bind us to the mass. It's sort of the classic odysseus story of being nervous he's gonna encounter these, these things sea sirens who will lure him to their island where he'll face shipwreck if he listens to their sweet voices He's anticipating that temptation and he says I want to avoid this bad outcome so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna bind myself to the mast so I can't control my ship I'll have everyone who's rowing plug their ears with wax so they won't hear the sweet sound and then I'll be able to enjoy the siren's call but there will be no risk of giving into the temptation to shipwreck my boat, and it's this wonderful story, classic story, and it's sort of the earliest example of a commitment device, but it gives you the sense of if we can outsmart the temptation by anticipating it in advance and constraining ourselves in a way that leads to the best possible outcome for all involved, then a commitment device can be an amazing, amazing tool.

So cash commitments are one of my favorites, but deadlines that have some penalty, making a public announcement so that now if I don't do it, I face shame. There's all sorts of different ways that we can bind ourselves to the mast in order to achieve our goals. And we don't need a teacher or a boss or a benevolent government to create the constraints that will lead us to succeed.

We can do it for ourselves.

Lainie Rowell: And is it fair to say that doing a combination of something like temptation bundling with a commitment device, does that lead to the best outcome?

Katy Milkman: Yeah, that's a great question. So here is where I think it's important to think about understanding what, is getting in your way.

And recognizing there may be some sort of personalization, but in the case of both a temptation bundle and a commitment device, they're both really trying to work on the same barrier, which is that I am tempted to do something other than exercise. So if temptation is my big barrier, then then the one two punch may be effective, but it's not clear that you'll get additive benefits.

It may be that temptation bundling is enough. Now I no longer dread it. Maybe that it's not. Temptation bundling is like, Oh, I dread it slightly less, but I'm still going to need to put a hundred dollars on the line that I have to forfeit to a political candidate who I hate if I don't go to the gym 10 times this month, otherwise temptation bundling makes it slightly easier, but I need that sort of fine on top in order to get me over the hump.

So it's going to probably differ by individual, depending on their threshold and tolerance and needs, but they're both working on the same challenge. And so that might mean also that maybe they aren't both necessary. Whereas if the barrier to say exercise is something different, like forgetting neither would be very useful.

You'd need a different set of tools. So I think one of the key things I try to articulate in my book and in the science that I've done that's sort of really come through is that there are a series of distinct challenges we all face when we are trying to make a change. And the tool that will work best is the one that's best matched to your challenge or challenges.

It's often multiple things. So that pairing is really important.

Lainie Rowell: I appreciate that you honor the unique and dynamic in all of us and how there's personalization that comes into play. So I can tell you. As a commitment device, it tends to be for bigger things, like a public announcement that I will have a book coming out.

This is not one right now.

Katy Milkman: You're talking about the past.

Lainie Rowell: I'm not saying there will never be another book. But anyways, I tend to do the commitment devices for grander things. And the temptation bundling is the day to day.

That's just me personally, but I can see how it's based on the individual and what they're specifically trying to achieve.

Katy Milkman: I love that. I have to say that personally, I follow a similar path, that commitment devices are for really big events. We talked a little bit about how losses loom larger than gains.

Commitment devices involve imposing losses on yourself. They are fairly painful. So if you can get there another way, you'll probably find more joy if you can avoid those constraints. But sometimes we need the most powerful tool and we need to pull out that loss aversion and constrain ourselves in order to get there.

So I like to think of it as a tool for the bigger challenges as well. And I try to solve as many as possible with the carrot approach rather than the stick, making it fun.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, the day to day fun. Is there anything that we haven't talked about, but it's so important, you would shout it from the rooftops, you just can't share it enough.

Katy Milkman: Yes, I have one piece of advice that we haven't talked about that I think is really powerful, and especially as two women having this conversation, both of whom are busy having careers and trying to have impact and balance all the things I think is particularly useful, though I think it's useful to anyone.

And that is, there's some research that was done by a woman named Lauren Eskreis Winkler on the power of advice giving to actually help an advisor achieve their own goals, which is sort of a bizarre thought, but what she basically looked at is, she was looking at people who were underperforming.

Students, salespeople, you name it, there's a population that's struggling. She was interviewing them and trying to figure out what might help them turn it around. This is part of her dissertation work. And she found an interesting thing in these interviews, which was, these folks who were struggling, they loved being asked for their thoughts on what might work and they they said basically no one ever gives us an opportunity to offer our own insights.

They're constantly coming and offering advice. It's very demoralizing, right? Because I'm not doing so well. And then somebody sort of like, thinks that with their five seconds of thought, they can give me wisdom that will be so handy. Thanks a lot. Also she thought that the things they were saying were amazingly insightful.

People really do know what they need to do. Sometimes it's about motivation in many contexts. This isn't true necessarily if you're struggling in calculus, then you probably need a good instructor and to learn some information. But if you're struggling to motivate yourself and achieve a goal, often it's not a knowledge gap.

It's a motivation gap. And she thought when we put ourselves in the position, or when we're put in the position of advice giver, it has some magical things that it does. One is it puts us on a pedestal. It makes us realize there's someone who could benefit from my knowledge. That it boosts our confidence, which is often one of the things we need.

It also forces us to introspect about what would work for us. And we may think more deeply than we would if we weren't accountable to someone else. We didn't need to offer up advice. And if we do come up with some strategies, which most people seem to be able to do, we're going to feel like a complete hypocrite if we don't walk the walk after talking the talk.

So if I tell you, Lainie, you need to do X, Y, and Z, and then I don't do those things, I'll feel ridiculous. So it's going to change my behavior and my confidence. And what Lauren has found in a series of randomized controlled trials is that's exactly what happens when we put people in position of giving advice on a goal they are also pursuing.

Giving advice improves your own outcomes. So it's like a double benefit, right? Hopefully you're helping those receiving it, especially if they have sought the advice, right? We just talked about not everyone likes getting unsolicited advice, but sometimes people raise their hand and say, I do want advice.

So when you offer it in that context, by coaching and mentoring others, you're actually supporting them, which PS feels great, has benefits for them, but it also benefits you. And as a teacher and communicator this is one of my favorite insights. It's like, oh, no wonder I love my job so much. It's actually helping me grow and get better at everything I'm talking about.

But it's led also to the realization I have this group of women who are all professionals with similar career goals and similar stages. And we started, we called it a no club. I now think of it as an advice club. We were so overcommitted. We were trying to figure out, can we create a group that would at least hold us accountable and help us make sure we didn't take on too much.

And we'd reach out when we had to decide, should I do this talk I've been invited to do? Should I write this book? Should I do this thing? I'm not sure. Am I saying yes to too much? And we'd all chime in and give each other advice. And initially the thought I had about why this advice club or no club would be so useful was, Oh, free consulting kind of from some wise friends.

I figured it'd make us more socially connected, which is nice. These are amazing women. But what I hadn't appreciated and since doing some research with Lauren on the power of advice giving and frankly, just experiencing this club, what I realized is, every time I offer advice, I'm getting this huge benefit, because the challenge that someone else faces, I can see from an arm's length distance, right, without emotional baggage, and I can think clearly about it, I often give very clear advice, if the same exact thing were on my plate, 10 days earlier, I might have struggled with it because I'd be too in my head.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah.

Katy Milkman: But once I've given advice to someone else on it, now I see the same kind of challenge coming up in my own life, I know how to solve that. I just told Madhupe what to do. I can figure this out. So in teaching we learn, as I think Seneca has been given attribution for that statement which I think is very wise.

And in coaching and advising, we gain benefits and achieving our goals. So I would encourage everyone to think about how can you mentor and coach, but you might even just think about having an advice club with people with similar life goals. If there's something you want to achieve, you get the social connection and benefit.

You do get their wisdom, but you also benefit from giving advice. And it's been one of the most wonderful parts of my career, actually, to have this group of women who advise each other. And I'd encourage everyone to think about something similar.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely, and I know a good portion of our listeners are K 12 teachers, and I think about reciprocal teaching, and one of the ways that you can really engage kids is to have them teach something to someone else.

And so, kind of in a similar vein, right?

Katy Milkman: Very similar, yeah. And actually one of the randomized controlled trials, the one that I got to be involved in on this, was just having high school students, we randomly assigned them to spend eight minutes at the beginning of, a fresh start at the beginning of the second semester, right after January 1st, they spent about eight minutes answering questions about how to study more effectively.

And they were told truthfully that their answers would be provided to students who are a little younger than they were and who could benefit from their wisdom. So some were multiple choice questions, you know, how do you avoid distractions? Where do you recommend studying? Some were open ended.

And that eight minute intervention actually led to a significant improvement in the students grades who gave the advice over a control group that didn't go through this exercise. It was a small improvement, right? We're not turning C students into valedictorians. It's like a one point improvement on GPA, but for an eight minute activity, it's an incredible result.

And I think it's really important to think about not only how can students teach each other, but also when they're thinking about their own strategies for organization and success and good study habits, that's another area where they can give advice and by coaching, they can learn.

Lainie Rowell: I love it. Oh my goodness.

So I could talk to you for hours. I know I got to let you go here pretty soon, but I just want to say thank you so much for this conversation. And what are the best ways for people to get in touch with you and stay connected to your work? I mean, please tell them the name of your newsletter. It's so much fun.

Katy Milkman: Oh, first of all, Lainie, thank you so much for having me. This has been a pleasure. And second, my newsletter is one good way to stay in touch and keep up with insights. It is called Milkman Delivers. I will admit, I was going to call it Katy's Newsletter, and then I sent a joke email out to a bunch of my former MBA students at Wharton that said, Hey, I'm going to start this newsletter.

I thought about calling it Milkman Delivers. Ha ha, that's so ridiculous. It will be called Katy's Newsletter. And I have never gotten such a high response rate to an email. I got hundreds of messages back from my former students saying, Katy, are you crazy? It has to be Milkman Delivers. What are you thinking?

It's gold. So they named it for me. I thought I was making a joke and that's a monthly newsletter where I share insights from science that can help you make better decisions. Choiceology, which we talked about is my podcast. And then How to Change is a book I wrote that shares the science on how we can achieve our goals more successfully.

So those are the best ways, but I have a website, KatyMilkman.Com, Katy with a Y. Just like Katy Perry , that provides all those resources too. And also links to my research if you want to nerd out and read the original studies.

Lainie Rowell: Okay, well, I have to say, I mean this, I'm not just saying this because you're on the show, I have not found another book, and I've read a lot of books on change and habits, and to me this has been the most impactful, this is one that I am constantly coming back to, it's one that I share with people.

And I just really appreciate it. And I just, I'm going to go back a little bit and just say that one of the things I loved about you when you're talking about the advice giving is I just really think that's a great way to make people feel seen, heard, known, and valued. And I think that there's a lot of ways that we can do that.

do change for ourselves. And I also appreciate that the work that you do talks about how can we help others and change with others. And so I just really appreciate that work.

Katy Milkman: Oh, thank you. And by the way, I think thinking about how your community supports you and how you support other people is one of the most important things you can do both for your happiness and to succeed.

And a lot of my work at the moment is in that direction of sort of creating social belonging and social support structures. And so love that, that, that message already came through to you in the book. And thank you for the very kind words.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, you're very welcome.

All right, friends. Thank you for listening.

Episode 106 - The Transformative Power of Awe with Dacher Keltner

Shownotes:

Join us on this enlightening episode as Dr. Dacher Keltner, renowned emotion scientist and advisor to Pixar’s Inside Out and Inside Out 2, dives into the profound impact of awe on our lives. Drawing from his extensive research and insights from his latest book, Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life, he explains how this emotion elevates our daily experiences and deepens our connections to the world. Tune in to discover practical strategies for cultivating a richer, awe-inspired life and embracing the vastness of our world with renewed perspective and gratitude.

📣 Special gift for Evolving with Gratitude listeners! Use the promotion code below for 20% off the Awe in Education course: 

Promo Code: 20GIFT

About Our Guest:

Dr. Keltner is one of the world’s foremost emotion scientists. He is a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the director of the Greater Good Science Center. He has over 200 scientific publications and six books, including Born to Be Good, The Compassionate Instinct, and The Power Paradox. He has written for many popular outlets, from The New York Times to Slate. He was also the scientific advisor behind Pixar’s Inside Out, is involved with the education of health care providers and judges, and has consulted extensively for Google, Apple, and Pinterest, on issues related to emotion and well-being.

Thrive Global Article:

The Power of Awe with Dacher Keltner: Exploring Profound Emotions “Inside Out”

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

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Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello friends. Welcome to a treat. I have Dr. Dacker Keltner with us. And Dacher, thank you so much for being here.

Dacher Keltner: It's good to be with you, Lainie.

Lainie Rowell: I am so excited. I want to start out with something. I didn't time it this way.

I really wanted you to be on the show for a long time. It just so happens that you were a scientific consultant on the movie Inside Out and I honestly didn't even know this until like a day ago. The sequel comes out at the same time this episode is going to come out.

I did not plan this.

Dacher Keltner: Man, are you in good shape?

Yeah, that was one of the great privileges of my life, my career was, you know, I am part of the science of emotion. I have a lab here at Berkeley that studies emotions like compassion and gratitude and awe and shame and anxiety and, and for Inside Out, the first one in 2010, Pete Docter called me, who's the director of Inside Out.

He had just won the Academy Award for Up. And he's like, Hey, over at Pixar, we're thinking about making a movie on emotion and you teach emotion at Berkeley, come on over and, and I'm not kidding. I actually thought he wanted to use my voice as a character.

Lainie Rowell: I find your voice to be mellifluous, so I'm all for it.

Dacher Keltner: That's really nice of you, but you know, that was a mistake. And what they really wanted was to, to talk about emotion and the science of emotion. How many are there? And what good do they do for us? You know, which they do a lot of good for us. And how do we use them wisely and how are they part of our identities?

And then I had yet again, another privilege to consult on Inside Out 2, which I think has a profoundly important message for our time about young people accepting themselves and, and valuing the right things like friendship and our era of anxiety. So it has been extraordinary to spend so much time on science and data and publishing in obscure journals and then to see it on the screen, like. Wow, you know, it's thrilling. So I feel really lucky. Thanks for mentioning it.

Lainie Rowell: Well, you've been working on it for now, like close to 15 years, because we know, especially with animated, that's a long, long process. And so you, you came in and five years for production, right?

Yeah, we got to see it.

Dacher Keltner: Yep. Yeah, I mean it's incredible They work they work in small teams of three or four people just drawing scenes what are called story cards Or storyboards and then they draw 60 to 70 thousand of those for a film, you know They're just working out all the scenes and and I just got to see it all unfold. It makes me feel very deeply grateful to be a part of that.

Lainie Rowell: Well, you have so much expertise and you've done the scholarly articles, the scholarly journals, and then to have something that could go out to such a wide audience. And really share this message of how we need to embrace all emotions, even the unpleasant emotions, and I think we're further along, and I would say definitely in part to Inside Out, but I think as we're recording in 2024, a lot further along than we were pre that coming out, pre the pandemic, so many things.

And I think what that movie does, and I think you've said this, is it does a really good job explaining that happiness is found in a rich mixture of emotions.

Dacher Keltner: The science of emotion was really starting to arrive at this idea that all of the emotions have their purpose, you know?

Even an emotion like envy which has a role in Inside Out 2, can lead you to good things if you use it in the right way and don't hurt people. And in Inside Out, the first one, it was sadness. A lot of people think that sadness, because it feels painful in some sense, is something to be avoided or medicated or shut down.

And in fact, the opposite is true. And Inside Out brought that message, like, we need to, like you said,, embrace the emotions, make them part of our consciousness and our relationships. And, you know, Lainie, when it came out, I was like, wow, there are going to be a lot of people who get that wisdom and, and, and maybe live better lives.

Lainie Rowell: I think they did a beautiful job of honoring the science. They took, obviously, artistic liberties here and there, and for people who are listening, and a lot of listeners are educators, so feel free to Yeah, bring that in. But of course, a lot of parents too. And so where this is really hitting home for me is that I have a 10 year old.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And

Lainie Rowell: I have a 13 year old.

Dacher Keltner: Oh, you are prime.

Lainie Rowell: I am.

Dacher Keltner: Man, Lainie, you're in it.

Lainie Rowell: So Riley in the first one is 11, if I'm not mistaken. And in this one she's 13, is that correct?

Dacher Keltner: Yes, correct.

Lainie Rowell: So we get the preteen version and the teen version, right? The tween and the teen. Pixar's not sponsoring this episode, nor is Disney, but is there anything you're excited for people to see in this next phase of Riley's life?

Dacher Keltner: Well, I think the first is anxiety who's this, in some sense, the central new character and young people today, 30 to 40 percent are grappling with anxiety or depression. The pandemic hit us really hard. And so what do we do about this? What insights do we apply to this? And the film arrives at a thesis that really you can find in all the great contemplative traditions, like Buddhist Meditation, Prayer, etc., Be kind to yourself, be open and accepting of all human experience. You know, it's a great American Transcendentalism theme. And I really look forward to how that will be talked about in our culture at large, is this idea of whatever the feeling is, it has a point, it tells you something, and then we use it wisely, we accept it, and we grow out of it.

And I think we need that message right now in facing these times we face.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I'm, I'm so excited. It's almost 10 years since the first one. And so we're ready for this next one. I'm so grateful that you have brought this through your consulting on the project. And I just think it's a really important message that everyone needs to hear.

Dacher Keltner: I do too.

Lainie Rowell: And I think that also, I mean, There's so much you do that I don't know about, but I, I do my research when I interview someone. Yeah. Not to make you uncomfortable like I'm a stalker or anything, but I do, I do a deep dive, try to at least, and one thing I didn't have to do a deep dive on prior to this was looking at the Greater Good Science Center, because this is a rich resource that I have used for years, and in fact, before writing Evolving with Gratitude, and Bold Gratitude.

I really dived into the resources, and one of the things that I think you all do so well is show where there's connections between these different emotions. Your work on awe, which I connect to gratitude very naturally, and I see that you all have done that through the Greater Good Science Center.

So, for people who might not know about the Greater Good Science Center, can you tell a little bit about how that came to be and what that has to offer everyone?

Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know, 22 years ago, Tom and Ruth Ann Hornaday, two Cal alumni, in the wake of losing their daughter early to skin cancer, wanted to create something that brought a lot of peace to the world and this is in the wake of the 9 11 attacks.

It's kind of a different political crisis and so at the time, positive psychology was really starting to take off, you know, Marty Seligman and Jonathan Haidt and Barb Fredrickson. But over out here on the West Coast at UC Berkeley, we were like, well, you know, there's an East Coast version of optimism and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

And there's a West Coast version of like cooperation and kindness and compassion and meditation. And so we timed it really right. And what we do at the Greater Good Science Center is we have a magazine online that probably, it serves what you go to it for, which is like, Hey, what's the latest study?

How can I talk about it? We have a library of practices, Greater Good in Action. How do I teach these people that I'm leading in a hospital or at my workplace how to breathe in a mindful way? We have practices. We have a podcast that I host, you know, that It reaches hundreds of thousands of people, like, brief episodes, interesting people from all over the world, practicing awe or gratitude or compassion or, you know, listening to music for well being or being out in nature.

We have science going on, so, you know, it, we're very proud that for free, we can give away these resources to millions of people. We have an education program. Any educator out there should go to our at ggie.berkeley.Edu. I just put up an awe course there, you know, man, you're teaching, you know, a bunch of 13 year olds.

Good luck. And you know, how do I teach them about gratitude? How do I teach them about an awe walk? So it's been 20 years in the making and serving a lot of people. And we're really we feel very proud of where it is.

Lainie Rowell: Well, and you should, and I had an opportunity. I have read your book, Awe, and I want to talk about that.

I also had a chance to take your course, Awe in Education. So I do really encourage whatever your workplace, if you're an educator, definitely check out the EDU stuff. It's specific to K 12. And if you are in some other situation, the greater good in action resources are so, I love it. They're not like, Three hours long.

These practices are typically five to 15 minutes. So very easy to incorporate into a team meeting, a staff meeting,.

Dacher Keltner: Thank you.

Lainie Rowell: For the listeners. I already told Dacher when he said my name, I got really excited and overwhelmed with joy because I have heard his voice so much on the Science of Happiness podcast.

And I really do think that that mission of peace to the world is being accomplished. And so. I'm honored to be someone who is taking the things from Greater Good Science Center and putting it out in front of audiences that I get to serve. I want to get to your book, because you had, and again, you're very busy.

You're, Professor at Berkeley. You're doing all this stuff for Greater Good Science Center. You're an author. I mean, there's so many things that you're doing. And your latest book, Awe, The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life, just came out. So I'd love for you to share a little bit about, , we can look back on your career and awe has definitely been a constant, something that you've always wanted to share with people.

So tell us How this book came to be, and why you believe it's so important that we pay attention to awe.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah, the book came to be, and thank you for asking the personal side to the journey. In large part, how I was raised. I was raised by a visual artist, my dad, and a teacher, my mom, who also I taught poetry at Cal State Sacramento and literature, women's studies, and I grew up in the late 60s, so it was kind of an awesome, it was an awe inspiring time.

I was in Laurel Canyon, where there's a lot of rock and roll and the like, but more importantly, my parents really had this approach to life about, wonder and go after mystery and feel awe and go to art museums and listen to music and get involved politically and so forth. So it's in my childhood. And then when I developed my scientific career and I was like, wow, I'm going to be an emotion scientist in 1992.

And that's when I began my professorship. You know, one of the things that we do in the science of emotion is we pick an emotion that we love and we study it for 15, 20 years, you know, and I've studied compassion for a long time and embarrassment, who has a role in Inside Out 2, and then awe, and awe I was just like, if ever there was a fascinating thing to study scientifically, this is it.

Can you do it? How do we measure it? What does it do for us? And then, you know, to our times. Lainie. You know, we are living just record levels of stress and record levels of anxiety. I myself, you know, I've had periods early in my adulthood of deep anxiety and awe always pointed me in the right direction.

It gave me meaning. It gave me perspective. It gave me a sense of connecting to others. It calms stress, whether it was, backpacking or listening to music or political activism and , I looked at our times and the data frankly, which tells us there's nothing better for you than a few minutes of awe.

It's good for your immune system. It's good for your heart. It's good for your digestion. It's good for your brain. It's good for your sense of self. It's good for your relationships. And I was like, I got to write this book. And so out it came.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, I love it. And I would love for you to share kind of what are some of the big messages you hope people take away from exploring this profound emotion, which I do find it to be a profound emotion.

Dacher Keltner: It is. What are the big lessons? You know, we've studied it for 20 years. Big lesson number one is, it's good for you, and I've already charted that, awe is a feeling you have when you encounter vast mysteries that you don't understand, and it's just good for you.

Lesson number two that surprised me is what I call everyday awe in the book, and why I keep using that word every day, which is, people are finding it two to three times a week, It doesn't take money. It doesn't take a meditation retreat. It doesn't take being in the Grand Canyon. It is everywhere.

And that agrees with a lot of people. Albert Einstein, the feeling of awe or mystery is a fundamental state of the mind or consciousness.

Number three, and I love this about awe, is we find it in the things that make us most human. You know, so when you hear about awe, and I tell you, it's good for your immune system or your heart.

And, and then I tell you like, it's all around us. Then you ask the question, like, where do I get it? You know, and it turns out we've done work in over 25 countries and, you know, people find it in nature. in music, in visual things around you. I'm looking around and I see this old, ceramic plant container shaped like a VW bus.

And I'm like, Oh, that's awesome. We get it in spiritual or contemplative practice in big ideas in thinking about life and also in the moral beauty of other people. You know, when you're just overwhelmed at people's courage and kindness. and Capacity to Overcome Obstacles. It just astonishes us. So it's everywhere, right?

And, and that tells us it's easy to bring into our life, which is true.

Lainie Rowell: I mean, the book is beautiful. One of the things that I love was how you connected awe with restorative justice.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah, thank you.

Lainie Rowell: And if you could talk a little bit about that in your work, and I won't do a justice, so I'll let you explain it, but it's also something that we see being used in K 12 and education, so tell us a little bit about that.

Dacher Keltner: Thank you so much, Lainie, you're asking all the life affirming questions. A long time ago, in parts of my career, I studied conflict and negotiations and punishments and started to hear about this concept of restorative justice as an alternative to punitive justice.

And as you know, Lainie, the idea with restorative justice is the perpetrator of harm, be it a young adolescent who steals stuff, or somebody who's hurt somebody physically, or a murderer, somebody at work, right? You, you're caught sexually harassing somebody, or, or etc. The idea of restorative justice is you take responsibility, you acknowledge the harm, you work through it with a person who's been hurt.

And then you try to achieve some reconciliation, the best examples being Rwanda and South Africa, right, the Truth and Reconciliation Commissions. And that's where I got interested in it conceptually, and it actually is an indigenous practice found in most indigenous cultures. It blew me away, just what a counterpoint to how Americans approach justice, which is the eye for an eye justice.

Then I got involved in the prison system. I was brought into a restorative justice program in San Quentin, would go there regularly. I had an awe inspiring moment where I was giving a talk and I asked them what brought these prisoners awe and their answers blew my mind. It was like, light and learning how to read and getting my high school diploma and hugging my granddaughter when she visits, helping young people avoid prison.

Astonishing. And their restorative justice is these guys. This is the most extreme test of it. It's like, they've murdered people. They've done white supremacist acts. They have done gang stuff. They've sexually trafficked people and they want to make amends for their crimes and they want to reach out to their victims and restore things.

And what I've seen in there blows my mind. And it is a great example of moral beauty. Like we all have the capacity for redemption and to find our souls and goodness. And that's what the program does. And every time I go in there, it was almost a spiritual experience to remember what we're capable of as, as humans.

Lainie Rowell: I love that you mentioned the word spiritual because that's one that I think of for awe and for gratitude. And so some people make spiritual about religion and it can be for, and if it is for you, that's wonderful. But if you are not a religious person, you could still access spirituality through awe and gratitude.

I look to you for so many things. And like I said, the Greater Good Science Center has really helped me. One of the most clear connections that I've seen as a practice is, you can call it a savoring walk, or an awe walk, but that idea of getting out into nature and experiencing that awe and gratitude.

And I just wondered if you wanted to share any other examples of maybe the connection between awe and gratitude.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah, and I love what you did there, Lainie, which is you said, you know, awe, being blown away by a vast mystery you don't understand. Gratitude, wow, I feel so reverential for things that are given to me, you know, be it by nature, food systems, people, weather, divine forces.

You know, at one level, they're both spiritual, or what we call self transcendent emotions and, no one has studied it scientifically, to your question, but clearly, one of the fascinating things about the transcendent emotions, awe, compassion, gratitude, bliss, joy, is they potentiate each other.

And in a state of awe, what our studies show, people feel more generous, more cooperative, more humble, less self focused. They're more likely to see the humanity in other people and probably gratitude, right? No one's studied that. That'd be a great topic to study. Thank you for the idea. Okay. And, but, you know, in some sense, what unites these emotions is we move away from the ego and self interest into a transcendent relationship to the world of like, I'm part of everybody.

I'm part of nature. I feel grateful for it. I feel awestruck by it. I'm part of this musical tradition that moves me to tears. And a lot of people in the United States think of that as spirituality. Eighty two percent of Americans feel like when I'm just immersed in things that are bigger than me, I think it's divine.

I think it's spirit. And I think we need to be having those conversations in every quarter. It is a human tendency to feel spiritual. It connects to awe and gratitude. So how do we honor that? You know, that was William James's enterprise with his really important book, Varieties of Religious Experience.

Like, we all do it in different ways. For some people, it's yoga. For others, it's, Christian prayer. For others, it's a Muslim tradition. For others, it is a form of Buddhist meditation. And, and all of them involve awe and gratitude, like you're saying. And so maybe these emotions are a way to start bringing together and respecting the religious traditions, which, which we need.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. I say this often, I think it's very easy to lead a distracted life.

Dacher Keltner: Yes.

Lainie Rowell: Maybe go further to say, without being super intentional, we are all leading distracted lives.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: Because there is just so much that is happening in this time. And we all have the dopamine casino in our pocket. And I worked for Apple for six years. I am not trying to say that devices are evil, but they are programmed in a way to steal our attention. And so we have to be super mindful, super intentional about how can we do that.

And the payoff is so huge in the mental, the physical wellbeing, the relationships, and then this pro social behavior that it promotes. It's just like, wow. For these small but profound practices to have that kind of impact to me gives me a lot of hope because it's not like you need to go off for a week-long retreat or you need to turn your life upside down.

And so that's why I love the work from greater good, and to me, connecting it to the learning communities, because this is the stuff that we want in our learning communities for the adults and the kids, right?

Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Well, you're an embodiment of what I think we need right now, Lainie, which is, there is this wisdom out there of gratitude and mindfulness and awe and compassion and cooperation and forgiveness. And thank you for asking about restorative justice. It's both documented in the lab, good for you in every way, sharing boosts life expectancy, tight social connections, gives you 10 years of life expectancy, etc.

We know this is true in the ancient wisdom traditions that people need, you know, that we've cited of Buddhism and Taoism and indigenous practices and the like. But we need to get it out into the world, we need it in hospitals and organizations and schools. and the institutions that are doing the hard work, not just retreats, but to put it into a school which is why I built the awe course with Vicky Zakrzewski at Greater Good in Education.

And that's the challenge of our times , and for me, thank you for asking about restorative justice in prison, find the places where you can take these ideas and practices and, where we really need them and, and go after it, you know, and you'll find something really special there.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's generational. So if we don't make that at some point, we're just going to keep repeating the same mistakes. So I think that there's a lot of hope and promise in restorative justice. And of course, I connect it to the work of awe and gratitude.

I'm going to go a little off script here, but I mean, I had like a dozen questions.

I know I won't get to all a dozen, but I did want to ask you a little bit about the podcast, Science of Happiness. Maybe tell us a little bit about it. And then maybe there's a practice that you were surprised by the guest's response, or maybe you tried it and surprised by your response or any of the above.

Dacher Keltner: Oh my God. Yeah. So thank you. At the Greater Good Science Center and in the positive psychology, wellness, contemplative traditions, people were starting to it's been a radical cultural shift. You know, that you're part of Lainie, which is, 30 years ago when I teach medical doctors or judges, which I do a lot of.

For tech people, I'd ask them, How many of you have a breathing practice or a mindfulness practice? And there'd be one woman in the back, like, raising her hand, like, Me! And the rest of the people would be like, What's this Berkeley guy talking about, you know? And now, a lot of people have practices, where they're taking a moment every day, pausing, opening the mind, and trying something.

And what we discovered at the Greater Good Science Center as we studied our audience and the like, is Our work was getting out largely to middle aged people, advanced degrees, doing hard work like you are and it wasn't hitting the youth, and it wasn't getting out as much to people of color, which matters a lot in these times, but podcasts do, and it was this new medium.

So we started a podcast, The Science of Happiness, won a lot of awards with it. Thanks to my producer, Shuka Kalantari. And, and there are two things that we do, which I love. And then I'll answer your question. One is we have people try out a practice, go try the Awe Walk, you know, which is what Pete Docter, the director of Pixar did, and tell us what it was like, go try striking up a conversation with strangers, you know go try giving away things for a day, which led to amazing results.

And now we also have a happiness practice podcast, Happiness Break, but all through PRX. And what we do there, which is really cool, is we just present practices, you know, for six minutes you can listen to a practice. And what we also do is we move into realms that are not really well covered in the mindfulness world.

Like, how do I become happy by listening to music? Mm. How do I practice a form of self soothing touch that Kristin Neff and self compassion encourages. How do I find well being through awe? So, we cover a lot of those, and it's been life changing for me to host it. You know, Lainie, we've hosted Prisoners, and Sona Jobarteh, this incredible musician, and judges, and, people in tech like Evan Sharp at Pinterest and school kids and high schoolers and teachers and nurses and doctors and during the pandemic, you know all kinds of people in the spirit of American democracy, not just teachers or contemplative practitioners, but people and I learned so much. One of my favorite episodes or practices you know, it blew me away, which was, there's this Columbia clinician at Columbia University who is teaching Taoist approaches to stress. Wu Wei approaches. Wu Wei is let things unfold.

Follow them. Don't try to control them, even if they're hard. See where they take you. In some sense, that's what Inside Out 2 is about. And her practice, like as I walked through it with her, it literally changed my life. I was like, thanks, you know, this is, thanks for doing this, you know. So how to bring these practices with this new format to people.

And it's been remarkable to see what it does for people.

Lainie Rowell: One of the things that I try to do with my work on gratitude and really any work in education or with adults in a corporate setting or whatever, is we know this thing is good.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: But there's more than one way to do it.

Dacher Keltner: Exactly.

Lainie Rowell: And I think when we give people that choice. And so what I love with the podcast and with greater good in action and the greater good for education is we can invite people to this. We're not mandating it. We're inviting you to this. And if it doesn't work for you, or maybe it doesn't work for you right now, you can come back to it later.

You can try something different. And I think that when you've got this timeless wisdom backed by science, oh, and there's more innovative ways to get it to people and for people to actually do the practices I think we start to reach, like, you've done so well throughout all of your work from the to work at the university, to Greater Good, to inside out, , we're gonna get it to more people, and they're gonna do it in a way that works for them.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah, and I love what you said, and it's actually a fundamental point in this literature for people to really appreciate, which is to invite in, you know, happiness is complicated, and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of pathways to it, right? We all come from it, to it from different cultures and genetic legacies and family backgrounds.

And you don't want to prescribe things, you don't want to force it on people, you want to invite, and in fact there are data showing that will, could misfire. And you want to invite people in, and I think what we do with the show, and with Greater Good in Action, it's like, see what works for you, you know?

And so for some people it's awe, and for other people it's, awe is weird, and, and they like positive mindsets. And for other people it's Deep Meditation. And, so I think we honor the diversity of the world in the offerings and then the podcast especially really brings in new voices, the practitioners like Dr. Urius Salidwin, who's from Mexico and indigenous and really a pioneer in the study of indigenous contemplative approaches, which are different. And she taught me, as an example, like when you do a body scan, which I love, and I've taught for 10 years, you start, you breathe, you think of the different parts of your body, she's like, before you do that, remember that you're standing on the earth, and ground yourself in the earth and all that it gives you, and how reverential we can be, and the minute I heard that, I was like, wow, what an insight that only the podcast, getting other cultures in, would bring to us.

And so it's, it's been a great vehicle for that effort.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I have to say, I do listen to the podcast regularly that doesn't keep me from being a skeptic sometimes. So one of the recent episodes had a title that was bird song. And I'm like, I'm like, what is this going to be about? But I have so much faith in you and the greater good sides that are.

I'm like, I'm going to listen to this. And then I'm like 30 seconds into hearing more about it. I'm like, Oh, this is right. This is right.

Dacher Keltner: And that's where the podcast form is different in some sense than writing where it allows you to do some stuff. That's a little bit more experimental. Listening to bird song is good for you.

Listening to moving water is good for you. So we can do stranger stuff on the cutting edge of the wellbeing space. And then also the skepticism. And, you know, again, such a keyword, Lainie, like some of our guests struggle with the practice and it backfires. And they're like, you know, I tried this three good things practice and man, I started thinking about the racism of our world and, and I couldn't get to gratitude and that's our world, right? And that's part of the purpose of contemplation is to see what the mind is saying about the world right now and to honor that. So yeah, skepticism is part of it, although I tend to advocate.

And also the complexities of the practices too, of where we really struggle.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, well that's where that's nuances too, because I would consider myself on the advocate side too. It's just, there's sometimes an initial response that's like, I don't know about this one. I go, wow, that's amazing. They got me again?

I Know I need to wrap up here, but, is there one more thing that you want to share that maybe you haven't shared before, or you can't share enough, you want to scream it from the rooftops, just one last message?

Dacher Keltner: I guess the message is about awe, we're in an era of anxiety, and also an era of meaning. You know, which is different than just feeling good. It's like, what's my point in life? What's my purpose? Awe gives it to you, as you said, Lainie. And I'm really overwhelmed that the Awe book has led to initiatives of promoting awe in palliative care, in schools, in hospitals.

There is likely a Jim Henson's show coming out in national parks. And so that begs the question of what can we do and guided by the science and practice and wisdom about awe, in our daily lives. And it's really simple, which we tested with the awe book, like just pause. wonder.

Think about what is mysterious and grand around you. Usually there's something there, you know, when you're eating something, think about where it comes from and all the amazing work that went into it. And then, remember those, what I call the eight wonders that are, that are so important to us as humans of music and moral beauty and nature and visual design and, and the like collective movement and just, and pursue them.

And I'm very excited next week, I'm going to give a talk on cities of awe, which I've started to promote about how we just can build this into our lives again and, and really curtail the anxiety and greed and consumerism of our time. So I hope some listeners out there will take interest in it and put it into practice in their own lives.

Lainie Rowell: And I just want to make one more quick connection to awe and gratitude in that when you're talking about, being aware and allowing yourself to feel that awe when you're consuming a meal, it's like on the other side of that is there someone you could thank for that meal?

Maybe it's the person who prepared the meal. Maybe it's going online and doing a review because you were at a restaurant. I'm always seeing how that connects to gratitude.

Dacher Keltner: Yep.

Lainie Rowell: So I definitely want people to check out the book. I mean, you've written multiple books.

I'm going to put a link to see all of your books in the show notes. And just if you could out loud, how can people stay connected to you? And I'll make sure and put links in the show notes.

Dacher Keltner: Yeah. You know, you can stay connected most importantly by greatergood.berkeley.edu. That's the Greater Good Science Center's website. And then the podcast, Science of Happiness. You know, we put something out every week and we're really proud of it. And it is a conversation that we are having with a lot of people.

Lainie Rowell: And I encourage you all to check out the book, Awe the New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life.

Dacher, this has been a joy for me. I mean, you've made my day, my week, my month, my year. I'm, I'm so thankful for this time and really just thank you to you and the team at Greater Good Science Center for all the wonderful things you're putting out there.

Dacher Keltner: Thank you, Lainie. It's been an amazing conversation and thanks for surfacing so many things that I care a lot about.

Lainie Rowell: I appreciate that. Thank you all for listening.

If you're grateful for this episode, please be sure to subscribe today. And if you're feeling really thankful, please submit a review and share with others so they know the value. One last thing, please connect on social media using the hashtag EvolvingWithGratitude to share your gratitude stories.

Episode 105 - Digital Harmony: Navigating, Coping, and Thriving Online

Shownotes:

Just in time for summer when kids (and some adults) have more time for screens, let's talk about digital harmony!

And you can choose your adventure with this one - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both. And you can find the article on Thrive Global! Digital Harmony: Navigating, Coping, and Thriving Online

• Part 1: ⁠Navigating the Social Media Labyrinth: Strategies for Digital Wellness⁠

• Part 2: ⁠Building Digital Resilience: Coping with Social Media Stress⁠

• Part 3: ⁠Empowered: Using Social Media for Positive Impact⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LainieRowell.com⁠⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Episode 104 - Dark Work and Identity Shifts with Anthony Trucks

Shownotes:

In a world where change and challenges are constant, how do we adapt and optimize our identity for peak performance? Anthony Trucks, former NFL, three-time American ninja warrior, author, and international keynote speaker, offers compelling insights into this question. In an empowering chat, Anthony offers his message of hope and tactical strategies for handling life's transitions, leading us to excellence in defining moments. As we dive into his teachings, let’s commit to looking for a microstep from Anthony that we can integrate into our life immediately that will compound over time.

About Our Guest:

Anthony Trucks is a former NFL Athlete, American Ninja Warrior on NBC, international speaker, host of the Aww Shift podcast, author of the Identity Shift book, and the founder of Identity Shift coaching. He uses cutting-edge research in science and psychology to upgrade how you operate so you can elevate your life and business to reach your full potential. After being given away into foster care at 3 years old, being adopted into an all white family at 14, losing his NFL career to injury and more he learned how to shift at a very young age, and now his life mission is teaching others how to do the Dark Work to Make Shift Happen in their lives.

Thrive Global Article:

Anthony Trucks on Mastering Dark Work and Identity Shift to Achieve Excellence

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About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

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Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello friends. I am so excited for today's guest. I mean, you're going to hear it in my voice. I'm going to try and play cool. We have today Anthony Trucks. Hi, Anthony. Thanks for being here.

Anthony Trucks: Thank you for having me. Excited to chat with you.

Lainie Rowell: I would love for you to just share a little bit of your story.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah, yeah, well I had somebody one time give me some good insights.

He said, it's not your story. It's your experience. It's the world's story and so with that It belongs to the world and my job to give it as a gift. So I never have a feeling of like, Oh, I've said it before. I go, man, I get to say it again. So I'm happy to share it and hopefully people can pull something from it.

But for me, I was given away as a kid into foster care at three years old and I kind of dealt with the whole really heinous foster care system. I was in for 11 years six houses got adopted at 14 by an all white, very poor family. So I had to kind of navigate the sense of who am I? Where do I fit in?

Tried my hand at something. Football wasn't very good. Decided after kind of checking out, I want to check back in. and leaned in and did some things that were uncomfortable. They didn't feel like it was who I was to do them, but it produced a stronger athlete, a more confident athlete. They got a scholarship to go play football at the University of Oregon, where I met my biological father on a kind of weird process.

Had my first son with my high school sweetheart at 20 years old, a sophomore in college. I don't recommend doing that. And then I navigated that, got a chance to play in the NFL for three years, tore my shoulder, came home, had to figure out who I was without football, had two more kids with my wife now, like that time with my wife, so we had twins, and just life blew up.

I didn't know who I was without the game and had to kind of find a way to go to the darkness really, really dark times, I'll call it, and got divorced, so it wasn't very good, and then after three years divorced I remarried my ex wife, we have an amazing marriage, and the things that I've learned from those periods of time have been really for me, the catalyst to finding some way to make use of it.

Did that make sense? Like it was the, because you go through dark times, it doesn't have to be a reason to do poorly, it could be a reason to do great. And so in my life now, I show up and I teach from my life experience in ways that people can apply to their own lives.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, and there's this thing we talk about in psychology that people don't always know about, and it's post traumatic growth.

And a lot of people have heard of PTSD, but a lot of people have not heard of post traumatic growth. And when I have delved into your experiences that are now the world stories and thank you for that gift, I see how you have gone through the darkness and come to light. And. One of the things, I've read your book, Identity Shift, Upgrade How You Operate to Elevate Your Life.

One of the things that was really profound in there to me was when you said it was a commitment to doing what it took to be great without a promised return of actually being great.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: That, wow, like that really took me back because it got me thinking about how sometimes it isn't even about you.

It's. trends and forces and just how things have come to be that were out of your control. And so I'd love for you to just share a little bit as you reflect on your experiences. You know, how has this commitment to just doing the great things without the promise of that return? How has that kind of helped you transition through challenges?

Anthony Trucks: Well, I'll start with this. I believe individuals need to fall in love with the day and not just the destination. There's this really good connection, like what's it gonna be when I win, when I have, when I get, when I attain, when I achieve, and it goes great, right? The problem is every day when that's your goal and you wake up and you have that as a goal and you go to sleep and don't have it as an achievement, you start to feel a certain way that's not positive always, you start judging and, you know, comparing why don't I have this so far, but for me, I realized a lot of individuals because of that having been an issue, they won't even start in the first place because the last time it was hard, so they quit too early, but if you fall in love with the day, which is I go, I'm going to start with great effort before I know I'm going to be great, what happens is you start loving the journey.

You love the day, you love the process, and you're going to spend more time on the journey. It's like you're going to spend more time climbing the mountain than at the peak of the mountain. If you hate the climb, you're not going to reach the peak. So what I've looked at like when I was a kid is this is when it actually took place.

I was 15 years old. I wanted to play football, tried it out. I was horrible at it. I wasn't very good for a couple years, in fact, and at one point I checked out and then a moment of kind of like waking up took place and they go, I want to try my hand at this. And I go, what do people that have this as a reality do?

And I looked at the things and they were not things I did. They didn't seem comfortable for me to even, you know, pursue these actions. But I realized that if I could fall in love with them, like, they would just get done. And if they get done, I get the outcome. But if I'm battling myself to do it every day, it sucks.

And it's just a bad journey. It's not fun. So what I did is I started kind of loving the dirty, dark, gritty part of the work, which is what I now call dark work. And it's interesting is that's the stuff that when you fall in love with that, and you commit to the great effort before you know you'll be great, well, you'll just give your all.

And no matter what it is, the price of success is your all and then some, just so we're clear. A lot of individuals, they go, well, I did everything, I did my best, your best sometimes isn't good enough. I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's a genuine truth, but you can get better. And so if you give your all, you have a better shot.

And you have a better opportunity to climb and you'll know what to do, but if you're always basing it on I don't know if I'm going to work out, I don't know if I'm going to get the outcome, you will never give your all, so you never have it. So for me at that age, I go, I'm going to give my all, and I did.

I showed up, lifted weights, ran routes, things that didn't feel comfortable, that were not my, you know, sense of self. And after seven months of doing this, I show up the next year to football, I'm an animal. I'm faster, I'm stronger, I'm bigger, I'm meaner though. I had this mentality of, I've done too much work in the dark to lose in the light.

I'd given this, this deposit of energy and my return was the sense of pride, self esteem, and actually skill set. And so when I went out there, like I shined differently. And so for individuals who are sitting there going like, I want to work towards something, I just don't know if it's going to be, you know, worthwhile.

The truth is, it's not going to be worthwhile. It's not. And it's going to say, it sounds weird to say this way. It's not going to be what you think it is. It's going to be better, way better, because you haven't realized what you have when you get there is something great, but you haven't realized who you feel like when you get there.

And you never touch that, you haven't tasted, but when you have that in your soul, it's a different sense of like, I could do this. And so for me, I started out, and that was my first foray into it, and over the years I learned to do it again and again, and now when I approach something and I go, this isn't going to be fun.

I hate doing this. This action is suck to go. How can I fall in love with these things? How can I get to a point of like joy, weirdly, around this thing that everybody else hates doing, because if I could find joy somewhere in it, and I don't do this only because it's gonna work out, and I just do it because I love to find a way to do these things.

I'm going to do them. So on day 72, when they stop, I'm going to day 772, I'm going to win eventually and win big. And I'm going to love the journey of it all because I started to become the person that does these things. And sure enough, I get that achievement. And then I get more and more and more and more.

So if you can let go of the, I got to make sure I'll get the outcome first. You let go of that and go just work every day and fall in love with that. The outcomes will come faster, they'll come more frequent, and you'll actually have a greater feel than you can imagine.

Lainie Rowell: One of the things that you said that stuck out to me was Well, you can find the joy in it, right? Even if it's something that you don't necessarily want to do, there are ways that you can bring joy into it and really fall in love with that process, even if it's maybe not in the beginning something that you're like, I can't wait to do these reps.

I can't wait to do this, right?

Anthony Trucks: Yeah. I mean, it's actually, there's psychology around this. When you have a clear plan of what you're going to get done and you know the steps, the milestones to get there. Even when they're hard fought, you get a little dopamine dump when you make a step. You actually feel good about doing the little thing that got you closer, but here's the other part about it.

The harder the thing is that you actually accomplish or get done that day, the prouder you are of yourself. It's like, I always talk about this cause it's true. And I didn't notice until recently, but people like the first rule of CrossFit is always talk about CrossFit, right? It's like what they talk.

It's like the unwritten rule. Oh,

Lainie Rowell: I think everyone's doing a good job on that.

Anthony Trucks: You know what I mean? And I go, why is that? And my wife, she's amazing. She's had three kids and like. When she's around ladies, it's like, how many kids you got? Three. What was it like in labor? They start talking about, and there's like, they, they sparkle, their eyes are lit up.

I'm like, what is so joyous about this thing that she hated in the moment, right? And, and what it is, it was hard. So hard, CrossFit's hard, birth deal's hard, business is hard, and when you've done something hard and you've overcome and you're on the other side of it, God, you have this chip on your shoulder that makes you feel so great.

Why rob yourself of that?

Why not lean into it? Why not embrace the suck of whatever it is, knowing that when you get through this thing, it's hard, because it was so hard, you'll have an amplified sense of confidence in self and you'll actually in time find a joy around it.

Lainie Rowell: And that gives us so much hope.

And actually, going back to, I referenced post traumatic growth earlier, and I don't think I explained it well, but just even knowing that it's possible after something is hard to grow and to be happy about something, or at least be grateful for something, that's, enough, actually, even just knowing that this is possible, and so you're giving us that gift of knowing, like, when you accomplish these things, you're going to feel better about it, even if you're not feeling great about it in the moment, so.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah, yeah, no one's ever done a hard workout and go, man, I hated that I got that hard thing done so well. Nobody, I mean, it's just, it's always something tied to that, like, it's really got to be something when you lean into that being the fun part of it.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, well, I think this is a good opportunity to talk about the key stages of operating, and you share this in your book, The Three Stages of Operating, how you plan for future moments. How you handle the planned moments when they arrive, and how you handle the unplanned moments. So could you tell us more about this? Because I think this is a really important tool to have to understand.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah, so we all have these ideas of what's going to happen, and they say life is what happens between your plans.

So, you got an idea of what's gonna take place, and, and on, you know, rare occasions, I'll genuinely say, it pans out the exact way you expected, right? It's like, I planned for this and it worked. And then you have these moments that, you know, that, that come across, and there's, there's a few, but the ones that I look at are like, here's the moment I planned for, here's the moment I didn't plan for.

And those are the two heavier ones to me, but what happens is, is we show up to moments that are unplanned, or something happened we didn't expect, and we have never thought about how we should react in that moment, we never process what, what we could do, or ways we could react, and so I like to tell people, like, when you have something coming up, you got something starting, What I'd recommend is going, hey, if this doesn't work out or something goes wrong, how am I going to stop at that moment of realization and process it?

Am I going to freak out? Am I going to yell at somebody? I just had a project that's coming to the back end on my, on my home here. And there's a lot of things that go wrong. Now, I knew from language and people that go, hey, it's going to go way over budget, which we went way over budget. They go, it's going to be, there's gonna be random headaches.

We had a guy drill a nail into a one inch. pipe that has a whole bunch of power cords in it. Killed the power in the house. I'm surprised the dude didn't hurt himself. Like it could have been very bad. And so it's these things where I go, in the moment of it happening, I'm not freaking out and yelling at the guy who's doing it, because I told myself early, hey, it's going to be a long project.

There's gonna be things that happen when something happens, not if, when something happens. Here's how you want to do it. Pause, breathe, ask yourself. Was it intentional? If he didn't do it intentionally, it's an accident. He probably feels just as bad. If he doesn't feel just as bad, you probably shouldn't have hired him.

And so, but he feels just as bad. How do we solve the problem? So I do that and I was actually to track me. And all of a sudden I get an alert from my ring alarm. It goes, hey, all the power in your house is off. And I told this guy, don't do this in this area. So when it happened, by deduction, the only thing that could have happened was that.

So I'm like sitting here going, I'm, I'm five hours from my home. I can't get there fast. I don't know what's going on. The cameras aren't working. I call the guy. He's not even there. His worker's here doing the work. And so I'm figuring out little by little like what's going on. I'm like, dude, get back to the house.

Make sure he's okay. I told him not to do this, and I think it happened. So lo and behold, he did it. We had to dig the concrete up, all this stuff. We had to go down the floor. I mean, it's a whole thing. And the dude was deaf. He wasn't answering my calls. Deafly afraid of it, talking to me. I finally got him on the phone.

I go, look, let me start by saying this. I know you didn't do it intentionally. I know it's purely an accident and they happened. All I want to know is how are we gonna solve this problem? And so we figured it out. He got, it was done by that night. He had, he had a guy come in, took care of fixing it. It cost him the money to deal with it, which was fine.

But imagine if I just like, what did you, and went off, he's, he's gonna get mad cause he's, and here they go, I didn't do it on purpose, right? These guys yelling at me. I'm a grown man. I'm going to be like, and all of a sudden it might not get done, right? But I pre planned in advance how I would respond to a situation like this.

So because of that, I navigated it better. Now this can happen while I was at my house. It could happen in your marriage. It could happen in your business. It could happen in your health. It could happen in some goal. If you want to launch a podcast, right, and something doesn't get done, if you look at what the goal is to have, the outcome isn't goal.

That's the goal to be. What's the best way to respond if and when something goes wrong? Well, when something goes wrong, it won't derail everything. Cuz all that could happen is more bad. If I yell at him, he doesn't do it. You know, I got to delay a part of the project, everything else gets spun out, right?

All because my emotion or my inability to plan what I want to do and let my emotions run the show. It happens and too many of us have that. We let the emotions take over and run as opposed to going to any kind of logic. And when emotions high, the functional intelligence gets low. I'm going in the directions of, of just seeing red, and that thing's running the show, and that shouldn't run the show, you know?

So that what happens is that I'm navigating things that were pre planned and I'm running into a wall that I knew I was going to run into and I go, here's the tool I brought to climb this wall, let's now apply that tool.

Lainie Rowell: Hope for the best, I expect things could go wrong.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: And then,

Anthony Trucks: but plan for the worst though.

Yeah. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Lainie Rowell: And so this intentional approach to how you're going to have this interaction with the person who made the mistake. Because the best possible outcome is that you work together. in a state not filled with anger, which of course is a very justifiable reaction.

You like, I told you don't do this. But I can say that in every aspect of my life, I can look back, whether it's with my kids or with my peers or whoever it is. And freaking out as a response has never gotten me the best results.

Anthony Trucks: No, and then I'm just mad that I didn't get the outcome I wanted and then I get frustrated.

I think I'm frustrated at the thing not getting completed and I'm more frustrated at the fact, probably subconsciously, that I hindered it getting done because of how I handled it. And I heard this thing one time recently, I might have been like last week, and I don't know where this has been all my life, but it says an individual is only as big as the smallest thing that can take them out of their pocket.

Like, whatever my pocket of excellence is, whatever thing can remove me from that, that's as big as I am. And so, when I have situations pop into my life, in the last, like, week, it was perfect timing when it came in. I'm having to deal with some craziness. Not bad, but it's just, you know, business stuff. It's part of the journey.

But as it comes in, I go, well, like this guy drilling a hole in this thing. I'm like, I told the team, don't nail or screw in this area. It's like a four inch space. Just not here. Of all the areas, that's where they went. And so I go, well, if this is a thing that can unrattle me, like it just shakes me a little bit, unravel who I am, then this is as big as I am and I'm bigger than this.

It's like, all right. I can handle this. So I'm, I'm bigger than this smaller problem, and that's been an active thing I can think about. I'm going to think about that a lot over the years from now on.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I think one of the things I truly appreciate about your work is this sense of personal responsibility.

There are things that are out of our control, but what are the things when the time comes, what can I do to have a positive impact for me and for others? And I think that, yeah. That really shines through in all of your work.

Anthony Trucks: Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of it may not be my fault, but it's my responsibility.

I think that Mark Manson, the guy that, you know, subtle R of not giving a F. He goes, it may not be your fault, but it's your responsibility. Like, my foster care life, that wasn't my fault I was in foster care. I had a mom who couldn't handle it, but it was my responsibility to make something of myself from it, not to make it a reason to do, you know, criminal acts.

And so the truth is a lot of us, we, we feel like a leaf in the wind. And it's crazy because the only reason we feel like that's because we don't act. And I don't know if we don't act because we think we can't change anything, or think we're not at fault so we shouldn't have to, but the truth is, whether you cause it or somebody else did, no one's gonna come save your life for you.

You better act. And then in acting, you can solve things. Now, truth is, you know, we're the common denominator in all of our problems. Either we caused it or we're allowing it to happen.

Lainie Rowell: Right.

Anthony Trucks: And if we can step into that role of going, Alright, I allowed these people into my, my pocket of, of peace and, you know, I, I should have filtered it better.

Now I can take some ownership and go, You know what, alright, I need to filter people better. That's an action for me. And they, they made this issue arise. While they did it, it's their fault, they're not gonna fix it the way it needs to be fixed. It's my job to do it, so I step in and do it. But then also, there are things that are my fault, that I don't want to pay attention to, because having to chip away at my own ego is hard.

Like, for everybody, it's hard to accept that I'm not the greatest in the world. Although we'll tell people, I'm not perfect, right? But the moment something arises that goes, you're not perfect, you go, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, I didn't do that, it wasn't my fault. Like, no, chill, just accept the fact that you're not perfect, you already said you weren't.

And in that, you can go. Maybe it might be partially something you did and that's okay. So now that it is, guess what? Because you had the power to create the problem, you have the power to solve it. But it doesn't, it's gonna come with a little bit of a poke or like a little jolt of like, Oh, that was partially me.

Cool. Let that, let that ride, absorb it. Let's now move forward and fix this. So it becomes part of a great story. I watched a video yesterday by Alex Hormozan. He says his dad gave him one piece of advice, that winners write the history books, which genuinely is true. He goes, so all the crazy bad thing that's happening, when you get to the point of succeeding and you win, you can rewrite it for all of whatever purpose it needs to be.

Yeah, you stumbled over this and messed it all up, but look where you're at now. But if you let that thing drag you into the ground, history's already been written.

Lainie Rowell: I love that nuance of partially responsible, because it's not an all or nothing. It's not just, well, this happened to me and I had no control over it.

Or, oh my gosh, I'm such a failure, how could I have done this? It's, it's a subtle, like, Okay. I had some role in this, whether I meant to or not. This is where we're at, and now I'm gonna take responsibility and get where we need to get. So I think that's really empowering.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah. It, it doesn't feel good, but it is, like I, I write my book and you read like I, I had my wife had an affair and like our marriage fell apart, we're now remarried, have an amazing marriage.

But the truth is it took years to get to the point of realizing she made a choice. And it was a horrible choice. We take nothing from that. She'll accept it and embrace it. It was a crappy choice. But I had to realize that it took two people in that relationship to get her to a point where she even thought she had to make a choice like that.

And so I didn't take full, like there's definitely 50 50 in that aspect. I absorbed, like damn, I wasn't a present husband. I put her in a position to have to make a choice like that. Again, her choice, take nothing from it. I don't take still that choice, right? But I had to take my role in that. And so it wasn't full, but it was partial.

But that partial, here's what it does. Before that moment, In my head I go, I don't know if I can trust women ever again.

Lainie Rowell: Right.

Anthony Trucks: Because I had no control over the situation happening. I could have been the best, I was the best guy in the world. And I was, I was amazing. I never hurt her, I never did that to her, right?

So what's the, what if I get in another relationship and it happens again? I don't know if I want to give my heart, and you start walling your heart off. Because you wouldn't accept, I'm saying me, you wouldn't accept that maybe you had some role to play, boss. And then once you do go there, okay, dang, I had a role to play.

While it sucks that I did, I can empower myself to be a better person next time so I can ward this off in the future. Which is how my marriage works so well now. I'm aware of things that took place back then that, that had me away. Like, and what her, her, you know, needs are. Like, there's certain, I felt it, I understood it.

It's a responsibility. So that I could actually with that have trust and hope and make something better in the future.

Lainie Rowell: When I hear about your experiences, I see this through line of, obviously, resilience, perseverance, and when I say resilience, I don't mean just in the, like, bounce back to where you were before, I actually, as Tal Ben Shahar would say, Resilience 2.0, again, I keep coming back to that post traumatic growth, but I see that in you, as it might not happen day one, but, you know, after something like, what happened in your marriage, you took some time, figured things out, and then came back stronger. And now you're in this relationship that's better than it's ever been.

And that, I think that just gives people a lot of hope that it's not just a, okay, well, that's done. And I have to move on from that. It's like, well, what can we do to improve and make it better and make ourselves better.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah, you learn from it. You don't wall it off, you don't have so much pain around it, you won't revisit it, you actually dive into it full force and unpack it painfully, but it creates a promise for the future.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, that continuous improvement is not like a steady all up hill like it's that zigzag, right? It's messy.

Anthony Trucks: It'll eventually it keeps going up right but there's definitely shooting up and down if you look at the stock market same thing like it's up and what it was 20 years ago, but it goes down a lot, too

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, absolutely.

I want to make sure we talk about another tool that you share in the book, and that is the H.A.R.D. Approach, which is part of your shift method. Would you be cool with sharing a little bit about that? Because this is so, I really, I mean, I love the whole book, five star review already submitted to Amazon, but I really, yeah, please, I won't, I won't do justice, but habits, reactions, drivers.

Take it away. Yeah.

Anthony Trucks: Yeah. So it's funny, I was at Google two days ago and we actually unpacked this process 'cause change is hard. It is. Robin Sharma says that change is hard in the beginning, messy in the middle, beautiful at the end. And I love it 'cause it is the beginning of, it's all hard, but I wonder, you know, why is it hard?

I question that. I go, what's a process I can apply? And somebody, once I said, call it the easy method, and I go, I don't wanna lie to people. And I want you to embrace the hard stuff. That's why my brand is called Dark Work. It's that work you do in the dark that's difficult. It's supposed to be unsexy. You know, not, not appreciated, misunderstood at times, but that's what gives you that chip of like, I did that anyways.

Now what it means is if I, if I set my sights on something, I'm approach a change in my life in some manner and I call it an identity shift. It's going to be hard and it is. It's a collection of habits, actions, reactions, and drivers. The habits are the things that are going to be We'll call it active things you do little by little by little that compound.

And I'm a person that say, I don't think you should go big in life. You should go really small in a really big way. A small, simple thing you do that compounds over time. There's great books on this of habits, like Atomic Habits, and Mannerist Success Habits, and High Performance Habits. There's great books that talk about habits, right?

It's really the same thing, is do something small in a really big way. Stick to it. But you're also gonna have along the line some big actions that have to be taken. Those big asks, those, those big ends, those big stops, right? There's big actions, and those ones are gonna, they're gonna be scary. It, it just, it is.

It makes your butt pucker. It's like, ooh, I don't want to do this, right? But that's the natural part of your body going like, hey, I'm afraid of this. Why? Because it's probably important. So I fear it. And so there's gonna be big actions along the way. We then go to the R, which I kind of talked to earlier.

What's the reaction I'm gonna have if it goes well, or if it goes poorly? If it doesn't go as planned, what am I, am I gonna shut down and cry? And, and, you know, if something doesn't pan out perfectly? No, I'm telling myself now my reaction is to pause, cry for five minutes. Settle back in. Get back on the saddle and go.

Right? That's your process. Cool. We're gonna do that. So when it happens, go back to that. And also if it's great, what happens if it goes great? All right, I'm not gonna squander my money or my time or my newfound success. I'm gonna be smart with it. Great. I have a reaction to when something goes well. So plot that.

Plan that. So when things go as they go, because again, it's what happens between your plans, you got a reaction in place. It'll drive you in a direction because it's pre thought out. The D is a driver. Meaning what's the thing that drives you to do this? The sole reason, like the why, that underneath, like what's the desire we'll call it?

Because for a lot of people, they'll get in the middle of these things and go, this is hard, I don't even know why I'm doing this anymore. And you fall off track. But if you've written down, okay, I'm gonna put this group of habits in, it's going to be hard. I'm gonna make these big actions and asks. It's gonna be hard.

I'm gonna have this as reactions. Gosh, it's gonna be hard. Why am I doing this? The driver. Is it because you want to have an amazing marriage? Is it because you want to be a great parent? Do you want to have a successful business? Do you want to be able to employ great individuals? Do you want to change the world in some manner?

If that's what's underneath it, you know why. When faced with that moment that's like, why am I doing this? You can go back to that. And that's how you push through the hard moments to make, in time, life actually easier.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, I love it. I want to share something that towards the end of the book you say that I think ties to stuff we've been talking about throughout and just I find really profound. You say, "my identity is not tied to what I create, it's tied to my efforts to create." And I love this focus on process over product. And so if you want to expand on this, I'd love to hear more about it.

Anthony Trucks: So if I go back to the books called Identity Shifts, and there's a level at which we will do certain things that drain us.

It's all willpower, right? Because it's not who we are to do it. When it becomes who you are to do it, it's actually effortless effort. Right as a kid, it was like, oh, I gotta brush my teeth. Nah, right now. It's like I just brush my teeth It's it's who I brush my teeth. I don't want stanky breath, right?

Simple way to look at it But there's gonna be things like that for all of us. I don't want to do cold calling now I'm like, I'm a Cold Call King, right? Eventually become the person that does this thing and the reality is you have to focus on that in a stance of like it's It is hard and is energetic.

But if you're a person that goes into a stance and go, I don't know how to do this yet. What you'll typically do is go have that imposter syndrome and go, I don't feel like the person that does this it's going to be too hard. I'm never going to flip that. I mean, we actually shut down. We make really good excuses to tuck away from it.

It's because people identify with the outcomes. And what I found in my work is like my focus when I say lean into Dark Work, which the goal for you is to optimize your identity for peak performance, to perform at a high level and what I call a dominator's identity, a sense of I can govern and control in defining moments.

It's really what I want you to have. You step to a moment that's defining and have power inside of you. The way you get there, is that you look at this and go, all right, I may not do this thing, but I'm gonna try it. But if I wake up every day and go, I'm not the best singer in the world, and that's all you're measuring against, then after a while, you're never gonna, you're gonna stop.

'cause you're like, I, I can't keep feeling like I'm not the best singer. So I go, no, no, don't identify with the outcome. Identify with the effort. So what do the best singers do? They spend three hours a day doing whatever. Okay, cool. I'm gonna spend three hours a day doing that. What do the best athletes do?

They spend, you know, the first month doing this and the second day doing this, and they just, they do this. And whatever it is it's outlined. I'm going to identify with doing the actions. The thing is, is when you identify with doing the actions long enough, you do the actions, there's this moment in time that pops up and none of us know when it happens.

You usually will never, and honestly you'll never notice it, you'll notice that it happened, which is I wake up and go, I'm a damn good tuba player. I'm amazing out here on the soccer field. Like it's crazy how good I am. Because at some point it just became who you were to do it because you identified with the actions.

I'm the person who every day I get a hundred dribbles on the soccer ball, right? I'm the person who every single day I'm gonna, you know, spend three hours on a violin. That's who you are. And then when that's who you are to do those things, eventually become the person who does it. And now you can't go to bed without doing it.

It becomes effortless effort. What was hard to do is hard not to do now. And that's the catalyst for me. I look at everybody that makes people great. And so whenever you step into the world of what you do, that dark work I'm talking about, it's identifying with the efforts of what it takes to become that person, not the outcome and measuring yourself to a place you obviously are not at just yet.

Lainie Rowell: I just love that. I really appreciate that. And you mentioned for habits, James Clear and Atomic Habits.

And he says most people think what they need is intensity and what they really need is consistency and that's what you're talking about and that's what you really inspire people to do and I appreciate that. So, I'm going to ask if there's any other words of wisdom that you just really want to make sure, you've given us so much, so I feel selfish and, and greedy in asking this.

Anthony Trucks: There's so, I mean there's too many, that's the thing, there are too many things I could throw out there, I could talk like this for hours and hours and hours, I do, I talk about things like this all the time. I think the world that I live in is one where, I find we're all looking about, you know, creating, developing, accomplishing.

One I would say is set your own scale. I think that's the most critical part of all this is I think your scale needs to be something that you develop in private or with your loved ones that lets you know what success looks like, like when you've crossed that finish line, because without that, the finish line will never stay still.

It'll always move. And no matter what you accomplish, it'll never feel good enough. And if you borrow the world's scale, there's never enough. There are trillionaires who want more money. So what ends up happening is a lot of us step into a world where we're not realizing we're setting ourselves up for failure because we have failed to create an outcome that is what I desire.

And if somebody challenges it, I can go, great, but I still like what I got, you know? And so what I do is I set my scale. I have my client set their scale. I go, Hey, let's, let's fast forward a year from now. What is genuinely life look like in a way where you go, I love this. What does it look like? Are you, are you traveling a little bit?

Traveling a lot? You making more money? You making less money? Do you have more time with your family? Like, for example, in my world, I speak. I love speaking. I'm great at what I do, but I only want to do 24 speeches a year. I don't want to do more than that. There are some people that go, I'm gonna do 150 a year.

That makes me, I want to throw up at the thought of that. Not because it's a lot of speaking, because I'm gone from my house. More than half the year. I don't want to do that. I'm in season of dad. I want to be home. I want to wake my kids up and be here when they do wake up. I want to get them from school.

I want to be at their sports. That matters to me. So because of that I turn things down or I raise my rates and and I've had a lot of people to go But and you could be on so many stages. You're right I could but I would miss out in the stage of life of being a parent I want to be a father and that's my scale. So when somebody goes, but you could be doing this I go, I'm glad you see that. Awesome you feel that way I still feel great because last week I got to be at my daughter's thing My son's thing go see my wife do this That for me is way more important than speaking to 5, 000 people and having some good social media posts, but that's my scale. Doesn't diminish anybody else's. I'm not saying you should do what I want to do.

I'm just saying it fits for me. But if I didn't have that in place, I would feel FOMO, comparison, every single day, and I'd feel like empty at the accomplishments I have. So when I set my scale, it gives me a North Star to move towards it, and it helps me answer every hard question. Will it help me be in Season of Dad?

If not, it's a no. If yes, let's do it.

Lainie Rowell: I think that's really important to, I mean, anything to avoid the comparison hangover, nothing usually good comes from comparison it's good to have aspirations and to be inspired by people, but trying to compare your chapter 1 to someone else's chapter 20 is, I think, something people have said that's usually not great.

So I love that you're talking about set your own scale and, and not just what. the general public or other people in your field would think is the sign of success. What does it actually look like for you? And I can, as a speaker, I can really relate to that because I, I don't want to be on the road all the time.

That would, that would mean I don't get to be writing as much. Obviously I wouldn't get much time with my family. So that's not the order of priority, family first, then writing, but. Yeah, so I completely connect with that. And speaking of connecting, let's tell people how they can connect to your work.

Obviously, I'm going to put everything in the show notes, but I just, in your own words, what are the best ways for people to stay in touch with you and your brilliance?

Anthony Trucks: Yeah, yeah. So I'm not sure when it's going to come out, but we are finally launching the Dark Work website. So if you go to darkwork.com, there's an assessment on there that lets you determine or actually see what your Dark Work Identity is essentially what it is a whole assessment of what's called your dominator's identity.

I had a PhD helped me create this so it's a pretty awesome one So that'd be a good place or just go to my social media at dark work or at Anthony trucks Likely at Anthony trucks has a lot more traction where I'm personally located. But that's that's the place man go see what I do and see if it's engaging and fun And if it is I say apply something I've taught it's really all it is just snag one nugget, say I'm gonna do that and then go do that thing,

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, and wherever you are and whatever type of work you're doing, really to be thinking about where do I want to be a year from now and trying to think about what are the habits, the actions, the reactions, and the drivers for all of that, right?

I guess that year from now is the driver, but you know, what are the habits, actions, reactions that you're going to need to get there? So, so much wisdom, Anthony, I feel all the happiness chemicals flooding my brain for this time with you. Thank you very much for being here and thank you all for listening.

Anthony Trucks: Welcome. Thank you for having me.

Episode 103 - Junk Dopamine vs. Healthy Dopamine

Shownotes:

You can choose your adventure with this one - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

And you can find the article on Thrive Global!

• ⁠Junk Dopamine vs. Healthy Dopamine⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

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Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Episode 102 - Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Shownotes:

Join us for a captivating conversation with John R. Miles, a trailblazer in intentional living and the force behind the Passion Struck® philosophy. In this episode, John shares his unique insights on how to embrace your authentic self and lead a life filled with purpose and passion. Learn about the practical steps and transformative framework that can empower you to make profound changes in your life. Don't miss out on this deep dive into personal growth and leadership that could redefine your path to success. Tune in and start your journey towards a more intentional existence.

About Our Guest:

John Miles is a master at guiding individuals on a transformative journey to unlock their ultimate potential and embrace their authentic selves. As the visionary CEO of Passion Struck®, bestselling author, keynote speaker, and host of the #1 Alternative Health Podcast, Passion Struck, John merges deep insights from peak performance and behavioral science with an innate understanding of the human psyche. His mission is to inspire and empower a global community to live intentionally, moving beyond conventional success to lead lives of profound meaning, passion, and authenticity.

John R. Miles brings to the table a distinguished 30-year career that spans across military leadership, entrepreneurship, global business and technology operations, life coaching, and strategic innovation. His leadership foundation was laid at the United States Naval Academy, marked by distinction as a Division 1 athlete, class secretary, and brigade honor staff member during a significant chapter of the academy’s history.

His approach embodies the rigor of his naval training, enriched with a deep understanding of business dynamics and personal growth, guiding both individuals and corporations towards unparalleled success.

Thrive Global Article:

Igniting a Life of Purpose: John R. Miles on Being Passion Struck

Connect with and learn from John R. Miles

Website
Book
Podcast
YouTube
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About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: [00:00:00] Hello, friends. Welcome to the show, John Miles. John, how are you today?

John Miles: Lainie, I have been looking forward to this for over a week, so I am so glad to be here. Feel so honored to be able to speak to your audience.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, I feel very honored to have this conversation. I am a huge fan of your podcast, and I've read your book, which this is an audio podcast primarily, but I just want, you to see there's There's some markups, there's some post its, it's been well loved, and I'm excited for you to share your message.

First, I would love for you to just kick us off talking about why is it so important to live intentionally?

What does that mean to be living an intentional life?

John Miles: Something I tried to do throughout the book was to utilize a bunch of quotes from who I thought were vanguards throughout the book to highlight different points of it. And the quote I'm going to quote here is one I wish I would have put in the book and I left out unintentionally.

So speaking of intentionally, but it's by Sharon Salzberg, who I absolutely love and the quote is, there's no commodity we can take with us, there's only our lives, and whether we live them wisely, or whether we live them with ignorance, and that is everything. And the reason I bring this quote up first is there have been a couple works, both scientifically and in palliative care, that really shows the results of what happens when we don't live intentionally.

So one of these that comes top of mind is the book by Bronny Ware about the Five Regrets of the Dying. and her number one regret really complements research that came out of Cornell University led by psychologist Tom Gilevich in 2018. What they're both showing is that when people look back on their lives and they were both looking at people who were in their third quadrant of life, 76 percent of all humans have the same regret, and that is not pursuing their ideal self.

It's not the mistakes that we make in life that we regret. It's the what ifs, the should haves. And so to me, that all comes from when we're unintentional about the life that we are crafting. And it's really, sings true to what Sharon says in her quote, that we can either choose to live our lives wisely, or we live them in ignorance.

And to me, that's the demarcation point between living intentionally or without intention.

Lainie Rowell: I really hear you on that inaction regret, right? The things that we just didn't think to do, didn't maybe take the leap to do. And you mentioned Sharon Salzberg, and you have had so many, I mean, you said vanguard thought leaders, just really, amazing guests on your podcast.

So what I love about the book, and I wrote lots of things down that I love about the book, including the five star review, which I, whenever I find a book is important, I have to do a five star review on Amazon. I think that's like my love language. But what I love is that you take these people who are doing tremendous things in the world and you make it so compelling, so comprehensive, and so actionable.

To me that was how I read the book, is you are taking your wisdom and your brilliance and you're also bringing in all these other people and what they come on the show to share with you. So is it, is it fair to say that's kind of how that relationship has been between the podcast and the book, that there's definitely been some, some feeding of each other?

John Miles: Yeah, I mean there's, that's absolutely the case although many of the interviews I did for the book were before The podcast even existed because it's kind of a funny story how the podcast came to be. I am a first time author and had not historically been an author. I was a business executive for most of my career.

So when I started down this path of wanting to write Passion Struck and it turned out to be written very differently from the way I thought it would be written in a positive way at the beginning. But I would. Talk to agents and I was striking out left and right. I think I reached out to about 80 agents and not one of them was interested.

And they all came back to me and said, You don't really have a platform and no one knows much about you. You're this business guy. How do you even know any of this stuff is going to resonate? And I didn't, to be honest. And so they said, you need to go out there and do public speaking. I started this journey right at the onset of COVID.

And so that was next to impossible. And I'm not sure your experiences with doing virtual talks, but it's not as if you can read. The faces of the audience or know if it's resonating or not. And so after doing some gut searching, I thought that the best way to test this was doing a podcast. And so that's really why I went down the path.

I did have it in my mind that I was going to at least do it for a year because I wanted to give it a fair shot, but I really used it as a litmus test to decide whether or not I was even going to put the book in the world. So, 40 million downloads later thankfully it has resonated.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I'm so glad you shared that, because I didn't know your entire backstory, and I've read your bio, and I know so many things about you, and I haven't even had a chance to So thank you for your service yet, but you have a military background, and if you want to share any of that, please feel free to do so, but I, I really didn't realize the book was first, I kind of thought maybe you started the podcast first, and I mean, if I, if my math is right, you're going to hit 500 episodes this year?

Does that sound about right?

John Miles: Yeah, we just crossed 442. So, at three a week, definitely on pace to do that. And you, you asked me about the book and how I approached it. I read so many books, given I'm a podcaster like you and I read all the books from the guest, I do over 100 books easily a year.

And so I've really trained myself to speed read. But as I have read all these books, And thank you very much for the five star review. There is very much a difference between a book that's actionable, I've found, and a book that you read and it sits on your bookshelf and you never do anything about it.

So when I was writing this, I didn't want it to be a book you read. I wanted it to be a book you lived. Kind of like this book by Sharon Salzberg I'm holding here. Loving Kindness that sits next to me almost every single day and I constantly refer to it for guidance and so that's how I tried to approach the book is I wanted it to be Relatable that people could get through it But also be science backed so that they the reader understood that it wasn't just john pontificating It's these things are really backed either by psychology or behavior science or neuroscience.

Lainie Rowell: And that comes through. So to me it is that beautiful, we know it's evidence based, we also see it in practice through these tremendous leaders and through your work. Tell us just briefly about the Passion Struck model. What does that look like for people?

John Miles: Okay, so, let me give the best kind of manifestation of what this thing looks like. So, I'm gonna go to something that everyone in the audience will recognize, and that is Mickey Mouse. So, imagine you've got Mickey Mouse staring at you. So, the Passion Struck model, if you think about this, it's how I organize the book around this model, but it has really four core components.

The first you can think of as Mickey Mouse's left ear, and that's something that I refer to as mindset shifts. And your mindset is really tied to the purpose that you have in life and your passion, because you need to have that ignition that passion brings to shift the way that you're operating and your mindset really influences your why and how you approach the actions that you take.

And in this model, I also included different components of the Stoics in this. And so it also has reference to those core aspects of the virtues that the Stoics thought were vital. And so that makes up one ear. The next ear, if you look at Mickey Mouse's right ear, is behavior shifts. And your behavior is very much influenced by those mindset shifts.

And it, you can think of, is the how. You put these actions into place and it's really the what that you're trying to accomplish. And then if you think about Mickey's nose, that is what I call the psychology of progress, which is really this whole concept of taking deliberate action, which is based on the stoic virtue of courage and intentionality.

And then you can think of Mickey Mouse's mouth as the last aspect. And this is intrinsic motivation, which is the fuel that powers the whole model. And underneath the whole model is driving our lives in a significant way. In a way that we feel like we matter, not only to ourselves, but to other people, and that we're making a difference for humanity.

So those are kind of the core tenets. And behavior shifts are really powered by perseverance. And as I mentioned before, the deliberate action or psychology of progress is really underpinned by our intentionality.

Lainie Rowell: I love that you talk about the mindset shifts versus the behavior shifts. And I actually want to focus on a couple of the behavior shifts that you talk about. And one of them that I think whether we're talking about in education, or in the corporate world, or wherever the listener happens to be, I think this concept of gardener leader is really very fascinating to me, and I wondered if you'd be willing to talk a little bit more about the emphasis on eyes on, hands off.

John Miles: Yeah, I would love to do this, and this is one of the chapters I enjoyed doing immensely, because it has Two people who I actually believe are two of the best leaders in the world right now.

One of them is General Stan McChrystal, who I interviewed for the book. And the other is Keith Crotch who has been a mentor of mine for, gosh, 25 years now. I met Keith when he was originally the CEO and founder of Ariba. He ended up selling it to SAP. He then became If people don't know his backstory, the chairman and CEO of DocuSign took that to a billion dollar exit, and then most recently was the assistant secretary of state in the Trump administration, although what his focus was on was really trying to blow up entrepreneurship in the U. S. because it's been on a 30 year decline. So as I was thinking about this need to change our leadership paradigm. I was really brought up in the concept of being a servant leader. And for most of my career, I think it really served me extremely well. However, I think that our times are drastically changing and the way that we're operating is very different because the key tenants of a servant leader for me really meant that I had to be face to face with the people I was leading and really serving their needs.

And we're at a point in time now where more people are distributed. Let's just face it. COVID really brought upon a a completely different change. So at the heart of a gardener leader, you can think of it as just as a gardener nurtures their crops, a leader needs to intentionally nurture their team's growth.

It's the process that's involved in having a deep understanding of each individual's unique talents and potential, but it's also coupling them with the right environment and resources for them to thrive. And so at the heart of this is something that I call the eyes on, hands off approach. And if we go to General McChrystal, This is something that I have heard him talk about, but he discusses it in a way that will make it obvious .

If he was the leader of SOCOM or he was the leader of all forces in Afghanistan, he's going to have missions going on all throughout the country or world potentially. There is no way that he can oversee a mission that a Delta Force team is doing or a Ranger operation or a SEAL team and trying to micromanage it.

He needs to understand that he has given his troops the training to understand what they need to do, the guidance and support that they know someone has their back and the ability to be creative in solving whatever issue they come across. So you need to be eyes on and understanding that you train and give your people as much support as possible, but you also need to be hands off in letting them have the autonomy to take the risks and do what needs to be done in that situation at hand.

And I think the same thing applies to whatever work situation you're in as we need more environments where adaptability and responsiveness are really in high focus. We need people throughout organizations with a longer term perspective, but most importantly, we need to cultivate a healthy work environment where we have an emphasis on nurturing and care and creating a positive and supportive work culture. So that's what this is all about.

Lainie Rowell: And to me, I made the connection to an interview that I had done previously with Geoff Cohen, the author of Belonging. And when he described Belonging talking about, it's not that we're all the same.

It's that we all have unique things to bring to the table that once we all are there, and in the right conditions like you're talking about, that's where we can all thrive, right? It's not that we all need to be exactly the same. We're seen and valued for our unique talents, like you said. You also mentioned creating the conditions, and then that creates the sense of belonging, and that can really be something that helps us in this shared purpose that we're in, whatever the field is.

And I love how you are always talking about intention because I think that's something that's really important. And I think it's really easy to lead a distracted life.

We've never had more things vying for our attention than right now. And so I love this constant focus on intention. It does have to be constant. And then I was wondering if you could also tell us about another one of the behavior shifts, and that is Conscious Engager. And you talk about how important it is to be consciously engaged when we're living a Passion Struck life, and so what are some of the strategies or practices we could do to live like that?

John Miles: Yeah, this was the actually the last chapter I wrote for the book, and It wasn't originally one of the principles and as I was going back through my research and the back story of this is I've ended up researching about 750 different individuals to look for commonalities on what differentiates the people who I consider to be Passion Struck from those who are not.

And I kept coming upon this theme that I can't believe I had missed which is the need for intense focus, which is really at the core of being intentional. And so in this chapter, I really talk about the difference between consciously engaging in life and how so many of us go through our lives just subconsciously engaging with it.

And I use the metaphor in this that we often hear that we're operating on autopilot or we're living our life on autopilot. And as I started to think about that, as I was writing the book, I just thought it was the wrong analogy. I don't think that that's how the majority of us are living because when you're living on autopilot and I fly a lot, hopefully the pilot's still putting the autopilot in the positive direction that you're trying to go in, even if they're doing the same things over and over again.

I think the better analogy is that so many of us today are living our life like, we're a pinball in the game of pinball, where we are so distracted by the elements of life, which represent the sounds, the bumpers, all the distractions that fill up the game of pinball, the same thing is happening to us in our life.

And to me, when that pinball is going around aimlessly, and we're distracted by everything around it, and it goes down the gutter, that's the epitome of what it's like to live unintentionally. And so to me, this chapter is really about the principles about what does it mean to, instead of being played by the game, learning to play the game on your own terms, learning to live life on your own terms.

And it really is understanding the core essence of making the most important thing in your life, be the consistent, most important thing in your life. And I borrow some of the work by Stephen Covey in this chapter. Because it really harkens back to one of my favorite ministers when I was going to a Methodist church back in the mid 2000s who did this whole sermon for us that the main thing about the main thing is keeping the main thing the main thing.

And it just sounds so easy when you hear it, but it's so difficult to do. And in this chapter, I also introduce the importance versus urgent matrix, which is a great way for people to analyze how you're living your life. And are you really focused on what you think are the most important things in your life?

Because I find so often that we're focused on what appears to be urgent, but is not important at the detriment. of doing the most important things that are urgently needed in your life. So, those are just some highlights about the chapter, but I I end it by talking about two of my favorite historical figures who were both living pinball lives Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill, but through the power of intentionality and changing their life and becoming passion struck in the twilight of both of their lives, completely transformed the way that history sees both of them because they ended up becoming passion struck.

Lainie Rowell: The stories are how we remember, right? And so I do appreciate that you bring to us practices and stories and they're are people who we go, Oh, wow, that's like a really successful person or that person is so wise. And so it really helps us to make those connections.

I didn't mean to hone in on two of the chapters that happened to be right at the end and literally next to each other, but those spoke to me.

Are there any other ones that you want to touch on? Maybe one of the mindset shifts that you want to touch on?

John Miles: Yeah why don't we talk about being an action creator? Because I mean, if, if there's any fault for the book, it's that I've been repetitive on this need for action.

And it is a core theme that I talk about throughout almost the entire book. And the reason I keep bringing it up and I'm repetitive about it is because it's so important. I wanted it to be anchored in people's minds that It is deliberate action in our lives that either culminates in a tsunami of greatness or a valley of despair.

And you talked to me about intentionality, and I think it's important for people to understand what I mean about in intentional action. We were just talking about the difference between being an unconscious engager and a conscious engager. Intentional action is what anchors us in the present. Our lives are all about the power of choice.

And the choices that we make every day, the steps that we take toward a goal and how we navigate our daily lives. And so being intentional is so critical because it's all about the execution of our plans. It's the embodiment of our commitment to growth and progress. So you can think of intention. In that it differs from mere desire.

Intention is the pursuit of a specific meaningful goal. It's a point of achievement that we set for ourselves. It's not just any target. It's a milestone that aligns with our deeper values and purpose. And achieving the goal is fulfilling. It's a chapter in our larger life story. And so when I talk about this, it is really being intentional about making sure that you're aligning the actions that you're taking in the micro choices of your day with your midterm ambitions and your longer term aspirations.

And so I think we get this confused that action, ambition, and aspiration are isolated variables and they're not, they're interconnected and interdependent. Because we can track our actions. We can analyze our productivity and evaluate our efficiency, but these metrics only gain true meaning when they're connected to our ambitions and aspirations.

And so I think that is a really important part that listeners need to understand and educators need to understand. For those who are in the audience, this is something that I'm really trying to get teens and young adults to understand because I think that this is the key to making lasting self improvement on your journey.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. I love that. So we've talked about a mindset shift, some of the behavior shifts. I mean, this is a very rich, rich book and I do think it's one that you'll be very happy and get to pull out and get some inspiration, get some practices. It's very actionable. I know I've said that a few times, but that's my favorite type of book. It's going to inspire me, but it's also going to be actionable.

So I want to ask you one last question before I ask you to share how we can stay in touch with you for those who are listening. You've had a lot of amazing, amazing guests.

I know you already mentioned Sharon Salzberg and you've mentioned some of the others, but is there any thing that you from one of your guests or you yourself just cannot tell people enough? Like it is such an important piece of wisdom. that you just love to jump on tables and yell about it until everyone understood properly.

John Miles: Yeah, well, I'll take one from a person who's in the book and I'll take one from a person who's not in the book only because I didn't get a chance to interview her for the book. So the one that I'll talk about that is in the book. is I interviewed a very close friend of mine. He's a Naval Academy classmate of mine.

I've known him since he was 17. And that is astronaut Chris Cassidy. And Chris, if you don't know his backstory, we went to Naval Academy together. He ended up going to basic underwater demolition school and became a SEAL. Ended up being awarded two bronze stars, one for valor. And I cannot tell the audience what he did in. The citation. I have actually read it, but it's classified, but it was probably one of the most profound actions of the war in Afghanistan. And from there he ended up going to MIT and then became an astronaut and eventually became the chief astronaut. And today he's the president and CEO of the Medal of Honor Museum that's being built in Arlington outside of Dallas.

What is so, to me, important about what Chris talks about And I use in the book is this idea that we end up not realizing how important our power perspective is and how we can reframe cognitive restructuring the life that we have around us. And he gives a couple of examples that I put in the book.

One happened when he was doing an EVA or a spacewalk and another one was his experience going through BUDS, but I'll just use the one from BUDS. And that is that. He learned that trying times end, and that in order to get through BUDS, or any hardship, or anything that we want to accomplish in our lives, A great way to think about it is, as if it's an elastic rubber band and that the time horizon can be expanded or compressed.

And so what got him through BUDS, and not only did he get through it, he was the honor man for his class, was that he looked at the micro moments that made up the day. And for him, he stretched the rubber band enough just to make it to the next iteration of training, whether that was trying to get through the exercise he was doing or trying to get to the next meal.

His time horizon was very short and he was very focused on what he needed to do to get through that without worrying about the next step. And I think that that's something that we all can use in our life when situations come our way that we think are never ending, but we can naturally work through them by really boiling it down to the micro moments that we have to get through.

And then another interview. that I did was more recent with Gabby Bernstein. And this interview was one that I got rejected 12 times by her before it came into being over about 30 months. But I had always just wanted to interview her because I think that she just, you know, has a raw, very intentional way about the way she talks and shares her life.

And something profound that we talked about is she was already very well known. Oprah actually named her as being an influencer when she was 34 or 35 who could change the world. And I might have her age wrong, but it was in her early thirties. But at that same time, She has publicly said this, so I'm not sharing anything she hasn't, but she came down to a profound choice.

She had seen a person who gave her a reading and made a tape about it and told her how destructively she was leading her life. She was chasing a whole bunch of addictions because she was dealing with past unknown trauma. But it was causing her to have a drug issue, an alcohol issue, a compulsive work addiction, and a dating addiction.

And her life, although it seemed incredible, was spiraling out of control. And basically the reading was, you have a choice, like we all do in life, like I was talking about earlier. And the choice was, you can either keep giving in to these addictions that you have and not dealing with your trauma or you have a choice to solve that trauma and change the world because you're not going to be able to do both.

And she ended up making the choice to get clean and she's now been sober for years and to deal with the rest of her addictions and you can see what her life has catapulted to now with four or five number one New York Times bestselling books, sold out tours. I mean, you name it. I mean, she was just on the Today Show the other day, but to me, I look back and you can look at her and say, she's done all these amazing things, but it all culminated from a choice that she made to change, and I think we are all faced with those choices in life, and it's what do we do at that moment that defines us, and like for her, it wasn't an easy change.

The changes I've had to make aren't easy changes. And I think the thing that ends up happening is we see people like I profiled in the book, Chris Cassidy, Oprah Winfrey, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, whoever. And we think that their life has been all rosy, but every one of them, when you look at their backstory, there were times in their life where they faced these choices and they choose to pick ones that ended up leading to where they are now.

And it's not just one choice. It's a consistent reinvention of themselves over time Because becoming Passion Struck is a continuous journey. It's not a one time thing So those would be the two that I would highlight.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, and there's a theme of impermanence through both of those, right? and so impermanence good impermanence keep pushing yourself like when it's rough It will change and we have a lot of things that we can do to move out of that.

And then also the impermanence of like, we need to keep moving forward and stretching ourselves with intention so we're not living a pinball life. So thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom in that little bit of time that I was blessed to get with you.

What is the best way for people to connect with you on the socials, your website, all of that? I'll be sure to put it in the show notes as well.

John Miles: The best way to follow me on any of the socials is to use John with an H, middle initial R. Miles. But you can go to my website, johnrmiles.com or PassionStruck.Com. And from there you can get to the book, the podcast, coaching, everything else that we're doing.

Lainie Rowell: So I'm just going to take a moment to say that your website is amazing, and one of the favorite things, and friends, you may see something like this happen, for Evolving with Gratitude, inspired by John here, the starter packs is such a brilliant way because you have such a huge library of amazing episodes. Again, you're going to hit 500, not too far off from here, but the starter packs are a really nice way to go see, you know, here's what these amazing women are doing. And I love that idea. So I think that's something I might be borrowing if you don't mind.

John Miles: I talk about it at every episode because it is difficult to explore the podcast now that we've had so many interviews and they're difficult to find. But I find if you put them in convenient playlists that maybe pique a person's interest, that it's much easier to consume them and understand what's on the show.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you packaging them that way for us. So, all right, John, I know I need to let you go. Thank you so much for being here and thank you all for listening.

John Miles: Yeah, Lainie, it's truly been an honor. Thank you so much for having me.

Episode 101 - Conquering Those Feelings of Indebtedness

Shownotes:

You can choose your adventure with this one - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

And you can find the article on Thrive Global!

• Conquering Those Feelings of Indebtedness

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Episode 100 - What Makes a Great Principal with George Couros

Shownotes:

🎉 Here we are at the 100th episode milestone, friends! I'm overjoyed to welcome back George Couros, who kicked off this journey with us as our very first guest. Returning with his boundless energy and profound insights on educational leadership, George and I explore his latest book, What Makes a Great Principal, the transformative power of consistent mentorship, our enduring passion for education, and ways to continuously grow professionally. Whether this is your first episode or you've been with us since that inaugural episode, prepare for a session packed with empowering strategies and inspiring stories. Don't miss this landmark episode—it's a full-circle moment filled with heart and wisdom!

About Our Guest:

George Couros is a worldwide leader in the area of innovative teaching, learning, and leading, and has a focus on innovation as a human endeavor. Most importantly, he is a proud father and husband.

His belief that meaningful change happens when you first connect to people’s hearts, is modeled in his writing and speaking. In his 20-plus years in the field of education, he has worked at all levels of school, from K-12 as a teacher, technology facilitator, and school and district administrator, and is currently an Adjunct Instructor with the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania.

George is also the author of the books, ⁠The Innovator’s Mindset, Innovate Inside the Box, Because of a Teacher,  Because of a Teacher 2⁠, and his latest release, ⁠What Makes a Great Principal⁠.

Thrive Global Article:

I recently interviewed George about his health journey for Thrive and you can check out that article here: George Couros on Optimizing Health and Life

Connect with and learn from George Couros:

Website: ⁠⁠georgecouros.ca⁠⁠
X/Twitter: ⁠⁠@gcouros⁠⁠
Instagram: ⁠⁠@gcouros⁠

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: All right, friends. I have a real treat for you today. The return of the George Couros. Hi, George.

George Couros: Let's go. I am so pumped. I'm number one, number 100. And so, I don't know, maybe 1, 000, right? Is that what's happening?

Lainie Rowell: No, we're gonna, we're gonna get you back before then.

George Couros: I don't know.

Lainie Rowell: I should have probably made it like every 10 episodes.

So you could have been 10, 20, 30, 40. But I have been anticipating and we have been plotting this for a very long time. I guess I'm the plotter. You're just, you're just kind and giving me your time. But I have been so excited to have you as episode 100. You are episode number one. Like you said, you are still the most listened to episode of all time.

George Couros: Really? Well, it's probably just because I'm, like, ahead of everyone.

Lainie Rowell: Nope, nope. I, it's it's, it's a, it's a good, steady lead. Like, you're

George Couros: Okay, let's, let's, let's, let's, first of all, before we kind of get into any of this stuff, Like, first of all, congratulations on doing this because to actually get to a hundred podcasts means you have to have some consistency and a lot of people like get excited about this stuff.

They do it and then they quit right away. And I think that's like a huge issue in a lot of the stuff we do. Like, think about education. A lot of school districts. You know like, ooh we're like so into this, and then, it's like, by the end of the episode they're like, nah, we're doing a new thing. And then it's like, oh why are people so frustrated.

So good for you, because I think that consistency and you know, putting yourself out there, having guests, inviting people, elevating them including myself. is a, is a huge kudos to you. So I, I am honored to have been on here twice, right? I'm the only person who's been on twice too, right? That, you were the first

Lainie Rowell: person, okay, let's be clear.

You're the first person I asked to return, but I saved you for the spot 100.

George Couros: I gotcha. Okay. Is

Lainie Rowell: that fair? It's not fair.

George Couros: Whatever.

Lainie Rowell: And I also.

George Couros: I'm honored, I'm honored. I'm very proud of you for. All you put out there too.

Lainie Rowell: Thank you. Well, and you are such an amazing, not only one of my besties, but such an amazing mentor.

You're so patient and so kind and you lift so many people up and even before we hit record, you were coaching me up on some things that I could do and I really appreciate it because I listen to everything you say and I do my best to execute on it because it's brilliant advice. I don't always execute as good as I could but I'm trying and so thank you for that.

George Couros: I don't, I don't, this is the thing about me and people know this, who are, I don't waste my time on people who don't like listen to my advice. Right. So like, if you're, if I know you'll never listen to it, I just, I don't even bother and I know, and that's the thing. Right. So I know you probably heard me tell the story before I ref basketball.

I know people are like, Oh, he's already talking basketball, but yeah,

Lainie Rowell: I'm here for it,

George Couros: that's what happens. So when I ref basketball like, and I got to a very high level and this was something I was considering doing professionally, it was really important to me. The thing that was really interesting is that you'd ref a half and there'd be, you know, a high level games and there'd be an evaluator sitting in the stands.

And then the evaluator, you'd go in at halftime and they would rip you apart. There's no positive sandwiches because, because there's no time, right? They got to tell you what you're doing wrong because you got 10 minutes. So they're like, don't do this. This is wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong. And the referees that always do the best in the sport were the ones who took the advice and tried it in the second half. And so if you're like I need to think about it and all this other stuff, like you're, you're done. You're, you're out. Right. So, and it doesn't mean that you always took it and you kept it forever, but at least they saw you are giving an effort to get better.

That's what matters, that you're open to the advice. You're open to trying new things. And so I always think about that because that was something I look forward as a principal, I look forward when I worked in central office. Who are those people that were open to challenge, to, you know, learning new things.

And I try to model this myself, like I am constantly tweaking stuff that I'm doing. I am in pursuit of the best habits in the world. And I will, I will take what works, I will get rid of what doesn't. But I'm always trying to learn. I'm always trying to get better with this stuff. So, you know, I, I don't ask anyone to do anything I'm not willing to do myself and you are so willing to try these new things.

So I'm very, that's why I'm very proud of you is that I know you don't listen to my advice a hundred percent and that's okay, but you, you're a good 90 something. Right. But it doesn't mean you stick with it. It doesn't mean you stick with it, but I know you'll try. You'll try. Cause you want to get better just like I do.

Right.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah. Well, in I love that example you're giving of the evaluator giving halftime advice and the people who improved the best were the ones who were implementing it in second half. And I think that's relevant to pretty much any sort of improvement that you want to do. I mean, we know this for professional learning.

If you don't implement it right away, it's never going to happen, right? That's just, that's gone. That's gone.

George Couros: It is. And it's totally, and it's actually one of the things I really encouraged, I was in Comac in New York, it's a school district in Long Island, and what was, one of the things that I thought was really powerful is they had students there, something I worked with them, said like, hey, make sure you have students on the PD day.

And what I love about it is that when the kids are hearing what the, what the staff is learning, there's more of an accountability. Cause they're like, are you going to do any of that stuff? Like, are you just like, what are you doing? Right. And I think that there's some power in that when you have students involved in professional learning, you're getting their feedback.

And as someone who comes in to speak to districts, the first people I go to after like, I'm done talking is, is the students. I'm like, what'd you think? What, like, what did you like? What didn't you like? Because that's who I'm ultimately trying to serve, right? I'm not like, I, I always talk about the importance of student voice, but actually it's not like I just want to hear it.

I want to build upon it and try to get better and like understand it. So that's something I think is really important because a lot of times we walk into these professional learning sessions and we don't do anything with it. And one of the things I've talked about quite a bit lately, you know, this whole notion, I, I don't think I've been to a bad PD in 15 years.

And it's not saying the presenter has been bad or you know, the content's not great because I don't depend on someone else making my learning happening for me. I say, okay, what am I getting from this? What am I going to take out of this? How will I use this? And so I always own it and I'm never dependent upon that.

And I think that's a really important aspect is there's a really great Stephen Downs quote. I cannot remember. It's like like basically we have to understand that learning is not something provided for us, but it's basically something we create ourselves. And that's, I've really embraced that and you do this too.

I do this. You don't take everything I say a hundred percent, you make it your own, but you still try in some way. And I think that's what matters. It's not like just listen blindly to people and do whatever they say. But it's like, Hey, like what, what works there? What doesn't, what works for you? How do you make that your own?

That's, that's, I think is really important.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's about, okay, well, here's what you're trying to accomplish. Here are some things that you could do, but make it your own. And I really appreciate, like, even in the conversation we had before we hit record, you were giving me some advice, and you were giving me the room to make it my own.

Like, it doesn't have to be exactly how you've done it or someone else has done it, but these are principles of what's going to give you the best outcome, if you will?

George Couros: Hey, I'll tell you this straight up. This is going to sound very arrogant. I am 100 percent the best version of George Couros.

Nobody can be George Couros like George Couros can be George Couros, right? And so, if you try just to replicate exactly what I'm doing, and you try to be me, I'm going to always be better at you than that. But if you actually focus on what is, what's really Lainie about this, that's where that power comes in.

I think that sometimes we just try to like, emulate other people, and then we lose ourselves in the process. Right? I'm not saying George is the best person. I feel like this is a Seinfeld episode where I'm referring to myself in the third person, right? I'm not saying George is the best. I'm saying I'm the best George Couros.

That's it. Because I'm like, I'm authentically me. I stick to what I believe in, what matters to me and what are my strengths? How do I bring that out? And so that's why that's so important is that if you emulate everything I would do, you're trying to be me and I'm always gonna be a better me than you could be me. You gotta be you, right?

Lainie Rowell: Right, I know exactly what you're saying. And it's not that I want to be just like George, although that sounds like a pretty amazing deal. But what I hear you saying, and what I kind of took away from our conversation earlier is that personal responsibility, that personal accountability, like do things that are going to serve others well, do it to the best of your ability, and that will help, everyone.

George Couros: 100%. That's 100%.

Lainie Rowell: Well, speaking of your wisdom, I want to make sure we have ample time to talk about your new book baby and so would you please be so kind to tell us what we get to experience, and I feel very spoiled because I've got an advanced copy, so I've already read the masterpiece. And so, tell us about the new book.

George Couros: Well, actually with Allyson Apsey, who is someone I, I really appreciate and love. She has a great writing style. We actually co wrote a book called What Makes a Good Principal. It should be available now. I don't know when this is, unless you're live streaming this, and it's not available now. But if you're giving it a day or two, it should be available.

And so Allyson we, I, it's always kind of weird. Cause like I say, like her and I coauthored it, but we also had 15 contributors. And I think what really makes this book special is Allyson and I kind of tell stories, do the research on like, what are the five pillars of what makes a really great principal?

But we also have former principals or current principals talking about how they met those pillars. What that looks like, stories about it, but this is the most important element. We also have teachers and students saying like, I have this great principal. And here's how they did that for me.

Cause we always say like, Oh, we need to, you know, listen to those we serve, except for like, no, we like, maybe we never actually do. And so it's kind of like, yeah. So, if you are a principal, aspiring principal, and what was really cool about the book is I didn't write it cause I'm like, Oh, I'm the best principal and like, I'm going to share my wisdom is like, I had such a great principal who changed my life.

And really wrote that to honor her and what I learned from her. And I always say like, if I could have 10 percent of the impact that Kelly Wilkins, that person, who kind of inspired the book had, I would consider myself extremely successful. She is an incredible person and. Just totally changed not only my professional life, but my personal life as well.

I can say that cause , she took me from like someone who was like, I'm done. I hate education to like, I cannot imagine doing anything else. So I think that that was really important in reading the stories from the teachers and the students. I'm sitting here, writing this book and going, Oh, I wish I would have known this.

Like, there's so many things that I was like, This is such a good insight and I'm so glad we put the book together this way where we had teacher voice talking about what makes a great principal. And there was actually one criteria for the people who wrote in the book. There was one question Allyson and I would ask, Hey, have you ever had a great principal?

And if they said no, that's it, they're out. Like, they had to have someone who they considered a great principal. They cannot like, no, I have someone who's alright.

Lainie Rowell: No, and it comes through and actually, my story in Because of a Teacher was about a great principal that I had and they're totally transformative.

They're life changing. I'm on a completely different path in my life because of Monique, who was a principal that I wrote about because of a teacher, and. So one of the things that I loved as I read the book is I felt completely transported into these stories where people were talking about these outstanding principles and it was so fun because I mean you only get to experience so many principles as a student, and you only get to experience so many principals even as an educator, and you and I travel around all the time and we see a lot of principals, but when we're in and out, and I'll just speak for myself, when I'm in and out, I don't get to see all the millions of little things that are making the difference.

George Couros: Yeah, so like it actually, it's interesting to kind of come back to something we were talking about earlier. When Allyson and I talked about, like, we were like, Hey, what are these things that really make up great principles? Like, what are these? And we called them pillars, right? And we talked about these kind of big ideas.

And I actually wrote about this in my newsletter coming up the notion of visionary that, a principal has to be visionary. And one of the things that really mattered in that is we're not saying you as a principal coming into a school should create the vision yourself and decide it for everybody.

Right? In fact, being visionary is actually what we said is the last pillar you should focus on. Mm-Hmm. . 'cause you gotta know who you serve. You gotta know what you have access to. And that's gonna be different in different school communities. And so the vision is something you create together with your community.

But my vision that I create with my community versus someone else in like let's say in a California versus a Canada versus wherever is going to be different. And so when we kind of come back to the conversation earlier, Allyson and I identified these five pillars, but we also said, you have to make this your own.

Like, what does this look like to you? How do you actually create this? And even the pillars you could, it was interesting that just the cover of the book, each pillar looked different. And what people said without us saying anything about the book was it's really unique because each one is unique showing how you know principals can be really effective but totally different.

And so that's something, you know, like I don't know if you've ever seen this. There's a lot of a lot of commentary like, Oh, like introverted principals are way better than extroverted principals. I'm like, that's not true. There's no way that's true. And I'm not saying it's the opposite. I'm saying that some introverted principals are amazing and some extroverted principals are amazing, but it's like, you don't become the opposite because you're a principals.

If that makes sense. Yeah. I got, I think that like, There's no way that it's like one is better than the other. It's. Who are you? What does that look like to you? How do you bring that to life, right? And so like, as someone who is a principal, who is very extroverted I hired a somewhat introverted assistant principal because I didn't need another me.

I needed someone who was very different, who appealed to different people, and I talk about that quite a bit in the book, is like when we talk about, you know you know, really like, do we actually bring in different viewpoints or do we just bring in clones of ourselves? Because like, I can get that way cheaper because I already think the way I think.

I don't need someone to reaffirm it, right? I need someone who challenges me and makes me think differently about things. And so I think that's part of it too. There's no like perfect principal personality. Woo. Was that alliteration, right?

Lainie Rowell: Rolled right off the tongue for you.

George Couros: Perfect principal. Yeah. There's so many different versions. Like I've had, I've had really great principals who are very quiet and shy and don't like speaking in front of people. And I've had principals who were, you know, would be in front of the school every day and you know, it's, it's different. I think that's so like, you know, but you know, connecting with people really matters, no matter if you're introverted, extroverted, you know,

Lainie Rowell: And it's also contextual, right?

I mean, there's some situations where I feel like I'm an extrovert and others where I feel like I'm an introvert. So thinking about like in this situation, I'm going to be this type of person. If I can find someone that complements by being this type of person, if that makes sense.

George Couros: You're an ambivert, actually.

Did you know that?

Lainie Rowell: I, I have heard that. I have heard that.

George Couros: I'm that same way, right? Like after an extroverted conversation, I am exhausted.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's like that little battery on your phone.

George Couros: Extroverted people actually get energy from people, whereas, like, ambiverts typically become introverted after being extroverted.

Lainie Rowell: I think for everyone there's a little bit of contextuality, but yes, absolutely, there's, there's definitely some of us who, after a lot of energy put out, they're like, okay, now I need to find a dark room to sit in quietly, but.

George Couros: Right, right.

Lainie Rowell: Well, so the five pillars, if you don't mind me sharing them, because these are the universals.

And then what I think is so beautiful about the stories is, here's an example of this pillar, Relationship Builder. And it gives multiple examples, and so you get to see different slices of what a Relationship Builder looks like. Not to say these are recipes, this is how you would have to do it, but here's how it works for this person.

So we've got Relationship Builder, Continuous Learner, Talent Cultivator, Resource Maximizer, and Visionary, which you mentioned earlier, actually comes at the end because it's not just one person's vision, it's a collective, it's co created. So, are there any of these that you want to like, maybe tease into a little bit?

I have to say, I really love the stories in all of them. I think maybe the time of year that this is coming out, and I'm not going to push you into this, but if you want to talk a little bit about Talent Cultivator, as this is kind of the hiring season,

George Couros: Right. Well, so, so actually like because of a teacher, which you wrote for, right?

You're actually the first person I talked to about the idea, if you remember that.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, I remember.

George Couros: Yeah. It was a Saturday evening. Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: I can tell you where I was standing at Fashion Island in Newport Beach when we were having that conversation. Yeah.

George Couros: Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. And I, I don't, I, no personal boundaries here.

Like, Hey, I need to talk to you right now. I don't care what you're doing. Let's go.

Lainie Rowell: You were not,

George Couros: this idea will be gone.

Lainie Rowell: No, I was ready and happy to have the conversation.

George Couros: Okay. So coming back to that book, one of the, I asked three questions and the book came from my podcast. Who is a teacher that inspired you? Who is an administrator that inspired you? What advice would you give to your first year teacher self, right? And so, in Because of a Teacher, we have, you know, three parts answering each one of those questions from five different perspectives. The thing with the talent you know, when we're talking about like maximizing talent, being a talent cultivator, one of the things that is so universal in the response is when I hear about great administrators, great principals, is they saw something in me I never saw in myself.

Like, it is absolutely amazing to see that. Like, that is a consistent messaging. Like, you know, I never wanted to do this, and then I had this principle, and then this changed in me. Even talking about Kelly, I went from, I hate education, to becoming an assistant principal a year later. And, and loving education, because I didn't like, man, I hate education, now I want to boss people around.

Like, that, that wasn't the shift for me. It was like, yeah, this is. You know, I see something in me that Kelly, I had no interest in doing that. I was never, that was never, but Kelly saw something in me that I didn't understand. And seeing that, and I think it's really kind of bringing out the best in people.

And one of the things that I talk about quite a bit is when Kelly, Kelly was really powerful in the sense that she had huge turnover in her staff, but not like 2024 turnover, where everyone's leaving. But it was like, If you went to her staff, she elevated, people to, they become administrators or whatever.

She just kind of like knew how to bring something out of you and you like kind of move on. And what was interesting, it attracted people to come to the district because they knew I got a chance to work with this person. She's going to take me to a different level. Right. But there was also some people that would never leave because they're like, I want to teach.

I love being in the classroom. This is where I want to be. And she'd bring out the best of them in that practice as well. So I don't want to think like every teacher has to become an administrator or whatever, because we all know this, right? Some of the best leaders in our schools are teachers. And some of the worst leaders in our schools are administrators, right?

Leader and administrator. I actually distinguish that very distinctly in the book. So I think that's part of it is bringing that out in people is really, how do you actually bring out the best in people? And even the interview process, I'm telling a lot about the book, the interview process was so unique when I met Kelly.

Cause it wasn't like there's 10 people around the table, just firing questions at you, making no expressions. Her and Carolyn Cameron, who is the assistant principal, who has also became an amazing principal. They gave me a list.

Like it was either 10 or 15 things. And it's like, Hey, pick like five of these things that you want to talk about. And then just kind of read it over and then we'll just have a conversation. And I was like, Oh, it's kind of interesting. Like that's very, I was a little terrified. And I'll tell you in that interview, I was. balling? I was like, what is going on? Right? And it was just, I was really passionate what I was talking about. It was like, that was so unique. But it was actually like a really interesting conversation in the sense that it kind of mirrored how you would talk in a staff room kind of mirrored how you sit in an office and talk to your administrator, but there is no time where it's just like, like you're getting, if you're getting questions like this and you're actually a teacher, you're probably getting fired.

It's almost like a litigation and that really changed things because I didn't apply for like a math position or a science, I applied for a middle school teacher position. Like, that's all it said. And so she was like saying, okay, let's, let's see who's out there because we don't want to limit it to like grade seven science, even though we have a grade seven science teacher leaving and let's find the best person that we can find that fits our school community.

Right. So it didn't limit that. And so she was like, okay, this person is really good at this. Here's what we're missing in our school. Can we like make some moves in our school amongst our staff , cause he doesn't want to teach this. He'll be terrible at that. He's really good at this. So she put you in a position where your strength complimented what was needed in the school.

And then you'd be really excited to be at work every day. Cause you're like, Oh, I'm doing the thing that I want to do. And that was like, that was part of, that was amazing. Like, it was just such an incredible thing because if you like have like a grade two teaching position, then you're never going to get someone who taught, you know, high school science, you know what I mean?

Cause you're limiting, cause they're not even going to interview. Maybe it's a K to nine school. I don't know. Right. But she, you know, if you put elementary, you're going to get a different group of people who are there. If you have like K, you know, five to nine, you're a different group of people. Then it's five, nine science.

Right. So I think that, that to me was, was really, really powerful. Cause she kind of like stepped back to this person's good. Can we make some moves here? to actually tailor something to build on their strengths. And then of course you're going to do well. If someone's tailoring something to your strengths.

You're going to do well. Right. But if they're like, Hey, we're just going to fit you in. wherever, then, you know, it's not necessarily the best thing.

Lainie Rowell: Well, to have such an innovative approach to the process, not being so narrowly focused that you miss out on someone's greatness and that you can make other moves, and then also even in the actual interview, creating the conditions that would mirror the environment that you would be going into, rather than, like you said, it's not just like, we're gonna just throw a bunch of questions at you, interrogate you, make you uncomfortable like really putting you into more of the situation that you would be in if that was to happen.

George Couros: I, I had an interview about two weeks prior to that interview. And it was for like a tech position and there was 10 people sitting at a giant round table and they each asked a question, no expressions. And I was literally sick for two days after it was, it was just, this is not realistic. This is not a thing, but you know, it just, it just wasn't.

And you felt like it made you feel like, is that, that's the first impression that I'm getting? Let's say I got the job, right? Then, yeah. So, you know, it's like, if it felt like a firing squad, to be honest, it was like, It was terrifying, and it was like, this is a Like I'm also making a decision as well, right?

So I think that's, you got it. We got to think about this a little bit differently. Like, and why do people do the interview that way is that's how they were interviewed and whatever. So I just, I appreciate, you know, having people who are, are questioning and saying like, do we really need to do it that way?

Like, why are we doing this? And, and asking that question and Kelly was always good, you know, and like. She knows, and the beautiful thing, I tell her how much of an impact she's having on me, and she's just like, ah, whatever. She's just like, because there's like, you know, hundreds if not thousands of people she's had the same impact on.

Lainie Rowell: Right, right. Well, and I, and even tying how the process of hiring is, You're still wanting to build on all these pillars. It's still a part of relationship building, right? That's your very first impression. And so if you were to have had those two interview experiences within the same day or two, and they both come through with an offer, you're obviously, no question about which one you're going to go to.

So I think it's really important you're mentioning this is a two way, you're making decisions too. It's not just, it's not just those who are interviewing.

George Couros: And like, you know, that, that was a time where it was like, I was desperate for a job and I would have probably taken anyone, but I would have been mad, you know what I mean?

But now people have to see, you know, people are like, I don't want to be, that's not what I want to do. This is not what I want to, you know, I don't want to feel like this when I come in here. And I want, like we're always talking about welcoming and warm environment for our students while we're crapping on the adults.

Right. So I think that to me is that really, really matters. So it, and it, it totally, when I did interviews, I stole all that stuff from Kelly. Like its very different. And one of the things I can't remember if I talked about this in the book. So this might be a little bonus. , if you didn't get the job, if you did not get the job with me and like, let's say we interviewed four people, only one's getting the job.

I like took hours of my time having conversations with the three people who didn't get the job to help them and say like, Hey, here's something I would consider. Here's something, you know, here's something really good. Here's something to do this. And because I don't want to say like, Hey, thanks for coming, but you didn't get the job and just have that.

It's like, these people are going to go work with kids somewhere. So I want to make sure they, I set them up for success. And here's what's beautiful. I remember one teacher. I like gave her so much advice when she didn't get the job. And a week later, she's like, I just got a job and it is totally because you sat down and talked with me.

So she's now advocating for me. Like she wants people to go to my school, someone who I didn't hire loves me, because I helped her in that too. I always think about how important it is that we set up people for success, whether they work in our school or not, right?

Because they're going to be working with kids somewhere, you know, like, Hey, I really love kids except for those ones. I don't like those kids. I hope they all fail because they don't make us look better. No, you're like, you know, you never know who's going to be teaching who and you want to set them up for success.

So that was really important to me and that's something that, you know, I've learned from having really great principals, great leaders in my lifetime.

Lainie Rowell: Amazing. I love it so much. Okay. I know I got to let you go here, but I want to make sure people know What Makes a Great Principal, by the time this comes out, it will be available.

So I'll make sure to put the link to purchase in the show notes so people can grab their copy. So excited. Allyson has been a guest on the show. Now you've been a guest on the show twice. Thank you both for your time here. And what are the best ways for people to get in touch with you, George? I'll put it.

George Couros: The best way is to actually get a copy of Evolving with Gratitude by Lainie, because that's a wonderful book.

And I think that, you know, I am saying this because I'm very grateful for you, but you know, for me, you can find me on just Google George Couros. You'll find all my stuff. So but make sure you, yeah, as much as I love for you to get pick up a copy of What Makes a Great Principal, Evolving with Gratitude is also a great book.

So, you know, you can kind of combo them, buy one as a present for yourself, one as something for someone else, but make sure that you, you pick up a copy of Lainie's books because they are absolutely wonderful.

Lainie Rowell: You're so, you're so kind, George. Oh my gosh. I don't know how to follow that, but I do appreciate you.

I hope people grab a copy of What Makes a Great Principal. And sure, get Evolving with Gratitude. George is in there too. Got a story in there too. So you can get it. You can get them in both places, but definitely check out What Makes a Great Principal. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom.

And you are constantly inspiring me. Thank you, George.

George Couros: All right. See you at episode 1000. I've already confirmed the spot.

Lainie Rowell: It's yours. Locked in.

George Couros: Bye, everyone. Have a wonderful day.. Thanks.

If you're grateful for this episode, please be sure to subscribe today. And if you're feeling really thankful, please submit a review and share with others so they know the value. One last thing, please connect on social media using the hashtag EvolvingWithGratitude to share your gratitude stories.

Episode 99 - Distracting the Amygdala and Thriving with Charle Peck

Shownotes:

Get ready for an enlightening episode with Charle Peck, a powerhouse whose journey from high school teacher to clinical therapist is nothing short of inspiring! Discover how Charle harnesses her profound insights into adolescent minds to revolutionize mental health in schools. Prepare to be intrigued as she shares how simple, playful strategies can drastically shift the energy in classrooms and beyond, transforming challenges into opportunities for growth!

About Our Guest:

Charle Peck is the co-creator of Thriving School Community, a revolutionary program designed for schools to improve mental health. With over 20 years of education and mental health leadership experience, she has the unique lens of both a certified teacher and a licensed clinical therapist specializing in trauma. 

Charle holds an MS in Education and an MS in Social Work. Her role as a high school teacher coupled with her work with children and families in crisis gives her incredible insight into solving youth mental health problems stemming from our schools. 

She is the co-author of Improving School Mental Health: The Thriving School Community Solution and a global keynote speaker delivering powerful messages of hope to educators.

Connect with and learn from Charle:

Website: thrivingschool.org
X: @CharlePeck
LinkedIn: @charle-peck
Podcast: Thriving Educator

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello friends and hello Charle. Welcome to the show.

Charle Peck: Hey, thank you so much for having me on here, Lainie.

Lainie Rowell: I am so excited. Friends, I have to warn you, this is someone I could talk to for hours and hours and I'm going to just try and be so good about watching the clock so I don't take up too much of her time, but I'm thrilled for the time I do get with you, Charle.

And so I'm going to start off with kind of a wide question, but you have such a unique perspective and background, having been a high school teacher and then a clinical therapist, which I'm just so fascinated to learn a little bit more about your journey, your story.

Charle Peck: Yeah, well, you know what, when you teach adolescents, you learn so much about them.

They divulge so much information about their, their lives, but my curriculum was pretty amazing. I got to teach about personal and family relationships and you know, Problems in society, ultimately, and there's a lot more in between. But what happened is kids were telling me their problems and, it organically came up and I didn't realize why they were struggling so much.

I couldn't understand it. And so, because I got to teach about mental health and talk with them and teach them about their brain, I got really curious about, How can we solve this problem? I mean, there's so many of us adults surrounding them, but they're still struggling. So I, I did some leadership on the district level and I did some in the school and, and did some professional development and all that.

But instead of going the principal route, which is where I was headed, I, Pulled out of that and I decided I'm going to go get my Master of Social Work degree so that I can understand structurally what was going on to contribute to these darn problems and that was one of the best things I could do because it gave me that perspective and I knew I needed to become a clinical therapist.

I wanted to work clinically. but also specializing in trauma. And so trauma is one of those words that gets eye rolls because people don't understand it, so I don't always use it. But I'll tell you, it does help me understand what's going on in the brain and the body and why our kids are showing up with these behaviors that are making us uncomfortable in education.

So that's the gist. I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I'm going to ask you to clarify because I was a psych major, so I do know what clinician means, but to someone who may not know that terminology, what does that mean? How is that different from. Maybe another avenue of social work that you could have gone down.

Charle Peck: Yeah, well, I mean, there's lots of different ways to, to help people, right? And if you think clinical, you think like people are, you're going to go into a doctor's office or, or something, but it's, it is about treatment and it's about looking at somebody coming to me and saying, this is the problem. This is what I'm going through.

And how can we apply a treatment plan and especially working with a group like when I worked at a hospital in a hospital setting in crisis, it wasn't about let's use theory to help them think this through. It's how can we work together as a team and come up with a treatment plan for this patient.

So it was, it was more like that. And it also goes beyond research and it uses research to apply to just help people feel better and function better.

Lainie Rowell: , I love that you did that, and I also love when I hear you talking about theory to practice, right, like you want to actually be on those front lines to say, like, we tried this, this worked, obviously knowing that we're all unique and dynamic, but I know that you took it even further than that. with your book, right? Because, and, and I'm actually holding your book right here for those, I know, I don't do video, mostly because I don't want to see my own face, but I don't do videos, so you can't see me holding it up, but I have Improving School Mental Health by Charle Peck and Cameron Caswell.

I have it well marked up. I'm going to go to one of the things that you said, because I think this is maybe something that we want to talk a little bit about. It says, on page 33. It says "the problem is we're trying to teach students to better manage themselves, but then throw them right back into the same stressful environments that caused the issue in the first place. This leaves them little chance to thrive." It breaks your heart. It just totally breaks your heart. And I think, like, I, as I read through the entire book, that one stood out to me as a, this is why people should read this book. And I don't use that word should lightly, because I know that that can be triggering for some people.

And I, you and I both actually have written, I've seen it, that where you can cross out the should and say could. But I actually think this is one that is very important for people to read. And so tell us a little bit about kind of the catalyst for writing Improving School Mental Health.

Charle Peck: Yes, and it's important that you pulled out that particular piece because it is essential.

It's foundational. I mean, I've been thinking about this, Lainie, for over 10 years about this problem and how we can solve this for kids. And part of what I started thinking about is we're teaching SEL. We're teaching advisory. I mean, we've been teaching SEL for over 30 years now, which is great. I mean, it's, it's great.

There's great evidence for this. Now, the problem is, as we teach this to kids, and how many, how many sessions have we been through in PD where it says, okay, help the kids be resilient, help the kids do this. And relationally, how many times are we trying to fix the other person? And so when I was thinking about kids and Cam and I were talking about this, like, why are we worried about equipping these kids so much when we're throwing them back with these adults who are not equipped themselves?

And the data kept showing me, too, is, you know, 93 percent of our educators who are out there teaching kids on the front line They want to support kids, but they don't feel equipped to do that. I mean, 93 percent of them are reporting that and they're frustrated. And these behaviors that show up in front of us that make us so uncomfortable, we don't know how to sit with it.

We don't know how to guide them. We don't know what to do with it. We're putting all the ownership on kids to make this better. It just didn't make any sense to us. So that's why we came up with skills that are actually something that you can infuse into everyday practice that you can pick up pretty quickly.

That's where my background as an educator and my background as a clinical therapist really works well because I was sitting in those therapy sessions with these kids and families and like, well, we can do this in our schools too. By the way, teachers could do this with you. Why aren't they doing that now?

So that, I mean, that's a lot, a lot to take on and think about, but that's exactly why we wrote that.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I think it's important to realize, and Marc Brackett was just on the podcast, and at the very end, I'm like, what's one thing that you just really want to make sure people know?

And he said it's about creating the communities, creating the spaces where we can take care of each other. It's not enough to figure out how to regulate on your own, or how to figure out, you know, anything, how to deal with those feelings. It's if you're constantly being put in an unhealthy situation. And so with, of course, the best of intentions and educators are so hardworking, so dedicated, and they do so much.

But as you said, a lot of them don't feel equipped to handle it. And so I think what the good news is, is that there are actually really small practices. It would be really hard if our message, and I think our work aligns so well, but I think it would be really hard if our message was, you're going to have to throw out, all the academics, you're going to have to throw out the things that maybe brought you into teaching that you love the most and you're going to have to focus on SEL all day, every day. I think that would be like a really tough sell, but the good news is it's not that. It's actually small things that we can do to retrain our brains and to help the community thrive.

Not just the individual, but the community too. I think that's so important.

Charle Peck: It is. It's got to be the community. Think about somebody who's trying to learn a language. If we're teaching kids language, we have to be teaching that too. We have to be talking it. We have to be living it. We have to talk about all the cultural aspects that come into play.

And by the way, it's not adding it on piece by piece. It's about living amongst it. And it, but it has to be so simple that we'll actually do it, especially because we're in the midst of crisis. It's just like the work that you're doing in gratitude, Lainie. It, it's, there's tons of evidence behind it, but nobody wants to hear about that.

They want to say, well, how can I use it and how can I do it so simply that it will work?

Lainie Rowell: Okay, so my five star review came through on Amazon yesterday. So you can, you can see that because that's, that's my love language. And so one of the things that I talk about in that review is that this isn't just a book, it's a tool.

One that educators, administrators, and mental health professionals can all use with confidence to foster this supportive and understanding and healthy environment. And so one of the things, I mean, I could go on and on about how I really love the smart moves that you and Cam made as far as graphically and just like where you place things, but I won't nerd out on that as much, but I do want to nerd out a little bit on what are some of the, you know, I love practical and actionable and you have in the book these rapid resets and I wonder if you could just give us a little taste and maybe one of your favorite rapid resets or maybe one that people would be surprised because they've never heard of this one before because there were ones in there that I had not heard of before.

Charle Peck: Yeah, well some of them I just adapted on my own because It was just in the moment with kids, working with kids. And by the way, we do this with adults too, but rapid resets, the reason we call it that, you would think of a brain energizer. Everybody knows about brain energizers. It's about retraining the brain to do something or refocusing when you need it.

I always say it's about switching the energy in a classroom or a meeting, a meeting too. But also this worked in crisis when I was working with kids and oftentimes there would be kids who were, you could tell that they weren't regulating or they were anxious. And what we needed to do was to distract their amygdala.

So there's a lot of training I got in CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, DBT a lot of all of these technical trainings that I got, even in trauma processing. And I thought, well, gosh, there's a basic underlying piece there. We need to distract the amygdala. We need to find our calm, but nobody likes to be told to calm down or to just breathe sometimes.

Right. And so it needed to be playful. And it also needed to be something that would just work in a moment's notice very quickly that teachers could do to benefit themselves as well. And in front of a group where you need to change energy, sometimes where it feels so overstimulating and loud, we need to calm that down.

Or, sorry, but sometimes, you know, you don't have your kids engaged and it's kind of low and you need to bring the energy up. So there's a million different ones. One that I always do that captures people and I'm going to explain it and Lainie you can try it and I know your listeners are just hearing this so I'm going to explain it in a way that you can just hear it through auditory and practice.

This is my favorite one. Everyone seems to love it and remember it. So you get one of your thumbs up and then you, Point with your pointer finger at your thumb with your other hand, okay? So one hand has a thumb up, the other hand has a pointer finger pointing at your thumb, and if you've worked with me before, you know exactly what we're gonna do next, and that is just simultaneously switching.

Okay, so now my other thumb went up on my other hand, while my finger on my pointer finger on my other hand Pointed at that thumb. Okay. And now you're just going to switch back to the other way. And then you're going to go really fast like this. And some of you are going to be like, what the heck? I can't do this.

What? And that's because your brain has not rewired to that learning yet. However, it's a great lesson, not only to refocus, it's a great lesson for growth mindset that listen, I didn't get it the first time, but boy, I'll get there. And it's playful and fun. And you get people laughing and it shuts down the stress response system.

And all of a sudden you've shifted the energy in your classroom. or your meeting, by the way. I use this even with superintendents. And and then it just, it's, it's a way that you'll notice with your kids that one is about to say something or do something that's going to throw the whole group off.

You're like, okay, everybody, I noticed that we need to do this. Let's do it. Right. So there's lots of ways to incorporate it for fun and for reason.

Lainie Rowell: And I'm so happy that this is audio only, and Charle, you did a really good job at not laughing at how badly I did that. Thank you for that. But it's because I haven't done that practice before, so I do have to learn how to do that.

But it is really fun, and it's something that you would think is so easy. It's so easy, but it's actually challenging if you haven't done it before, so give that a try. There are so many rapid resets in the book, and again, that's, that my favorite is practical and actionable books. There's a lot of really good books out on theory, but if it's something I can't put into practice with the people I serve, that for me is not going to carry as much weight.

Charle Peck: Right. Well, and I also like part of that. I like that teachers can use that for themselves because part of, part of my message is that you have to be able to manage your own mental health and wellness. And folks, this does not mean that we step out of things when they're uncomfortable. That's what we've done.

We've done that. And we don't know how to sit in that discomfort. And then when kids don't know how to do that and their behavior shows up in ways that we're like, it gives us an emotional charge. We don't know how to manage ourselves and we certainly don't know how to respond to them. The best thing we can think of is, Oh my gosh, we've got to stop everything right now, or I can't handle this and I'm out.

So I am telling you there is hope because we can manage and then stay and feel excited about the work we're doing.

Lainie Rowell: The quote that keeps popping in my head Dr. Aliza Pressman, Raising Good Humans. Podcast. Talks about all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. And I think that's maybe a way to, to try and process through what can I think sometimes feel like mixed messages, because it sometimes feels like we're saying there are no bad emotions, because there aren't, right? All emotions serve a purpose.

So we can welcome all the feelings, all the emotions. What we don't welcome is all the behaviors. And I think that's where it's really important. And so when it comes a time where the behavior is not appropriate in the context, it's time to shift. And so these rapid resets, whether it's to shift up in energy or like you said, to calm down, bring it down.

We want to distract the amygdala so we can get back to behavior that is appropriate. fitting for the circumstances.

Charle Peck: That's absolutely right, Lainie. And it's important that we understand that that there's a brain body connection. So no kid is saying, I want to act like this, and look like this, and even feel like this.

And I don't want it to show this way, but, Oh my gosh, my body is responding. And so that's part of the teaching we do is, is we have this wheel of reactivity and it's, it's about, well, how is your brain that that's going off for that amygdala, because it's part of our nervous system. How is your nervous system responding to that right now?

Because right now we need to develop skills to go back to that word that you said before I think it was when I was interviewing you for my podcast is notice, notice, is essential because if we're not noticing, we can't catch ourselves and then make the shift. So I'm glad you had mentioned that. Yeah.

By the way, listeners, you need to listen to Lainie's amazing, amazing interview on my podcast called Thriving Educator, because that's going to be, I can't wait to release that too.

Lainie Rowell: Well, thank you. And this is what podcasters like to do. We like to talk to each other and hit record. And so, and I was just looking forward to getting you on this show and I want to go back to something that has has been kind of a theme here is that it's not just for kids.

It's for adults as well, right? It's that we are creating communities and these communities consist of adults and kids. And then also, even just in the workplace, and it's funny because you and I do a lot of work where we're sometimes only interacting with adults. It's funny because we do a lot of work in education, we do work outside of education, but even when we're in education, we're only doing stuff with the adults.

And I do the same practices, right? Because this is stuff that is just about being a human. It's not specific necessarily. There are considerations for developmental and all of that, but these are practices that are just across the board, good for humans.

Charle Peck: They are. And that's why there's a couple of industries that have been connecting with me.

First of all, college level programs are now contacting me to teach their college students this, especially pre service teachers. I mean, we need to get them skilled before they get into the darn classroom. Even with this stuff, it can be packaged. This is what people are coming to me for. They're like, this is classroom management strategies too.

And I said, yes, it actually is. It definitely is mental health rooted, but it absolutely is classroom management. We're looking over after our own needs and then responding effectively to conflict and reducing that conflict. But you know what, who else has been, has been coming to me, these Fortune 500 companies are coming to me and they're saying, we need this for not only employee wellness, but employee investing in our employee workforce, giving them skills because it's investing in human capital in their workforce.

So it's just, it's exploding because it, it does get back to some of the basics that we all just need to have to thrive.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. Charle, one of my favorite things about bringing in brilliant people like you is you're not here to just point out the problems, you're coming with solutions. So, tell us how does this work in a system, in an organization, in learning communities?

Charle Peck: Yes, oh my goodness. So because it's been based on needs and I've been customizing for several years to the different districts and companies that are coming to me, it's helped me to really see a longer term solution.

And so part of that is you can bring me in and do professional development. I do the half days and full day PDs and I equip. teachers, essentially, and then school counselors, I work with them, and district leaders, principals, and all that. What I had to decide is how are we going to make this long term sustainable, how are we going to build autonomy within these school districts and schools, and how are we going to make it affordable and something that we can use over and over and over to have a real transformation culturally.

That's really the goal. And so I developed this program where I, I train people. It is, it's like a train the trainer model, but not so big. And some people could just learn the skills on their own and just be done there and, and acquire those in a self paced way. And that's something that's, that's already out there.

Something else I've been working on is PD, because that's where they're like, I want more. How do I get more of this? And, and then. Are you hiring? They ask me that a lot. Or how do you equip me? So I devise this plan. It's the level two. They become, become a facilitator. So we can do that virtually. I come on site.

I can train people, a group of the mental health team members there, or I just started a retreat, which I'm excited about, which is a wellness retreat, but also they get trained and certified to run this stuff. I give them all the facilitation. And activities and all that afterwards too. So that is how we have to do it systemically.

I will not be the only one doing this. I have to equip the people already within the system who know their own system well and can work from the strengths.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, a solution that is sustainable is so critical and I think that so often we see that not happen and then budgets change, attention changes, whatever it is, and then things fall apart.

Well, that didn't work. Well, you have to have it. It has to be sustainable. That's just the only way. And so I love that you offer so many different solutions. And, I want to ask you one more question before I get to how can people connect with you. But that's coming, friends, so stay tuned, okay?

So I want to ask you this question that I love to ask, and that is, what is something you either can't share enough, I mean, something you could just have said a million, million times, but you could say it a million more times and be happy. So something you can't share enough, or something you haven't had a chance to share before.

Charle Peck: If we're not willing to make any kind of change, change will not happen. And that's exactly why Josh and I got together. I mean, I have this book of nine skills I'm really proud of and they are, they are working well, but there has to be something before that to get people ready to acquire them and use them in a way that they're going to be meaningful, not only for ourselves, but for others and learning to step outside of ourselves to create that secure space.

So that's, That's why Josh and I are writing this book about how to get there, how to get that, that mentality ready in a very easy, easy, quick way. So I'm excited about that, but listen, if we're not willing to do this, then we're not going to make the change. I just ask people to just challenge themselves.

Are you ready?

And when are you ready? And let's do this because we can.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. Well, I am so excited that Improving School Mental Health, the Thriving School Community Solution book, is already out, so people can grab this today, and where is the best place for them to get it?

Charle Peck: They can get it right on Amazon, just, just look at Improving School Mental Health and our solution, the program is the Thriving School Community Solution.

It's kind of a mouthful, but that's the best way to say it. It's a community wide approach.

Lainie Rowell: And hopefully I said it right. Did I say it right?

Charle Peck: You did. You did.

Lainie Rowell: Sometimes I go back and I listen to these episodes and I'm like, what was I saying? Those were not the words that were in my head. They came out of my mouth all different.

So I'm very excited that people can go get this right now. And then when does the Peck Stamper masterpiece hit the stands? Do we look for that soon, hopefully?

Charle Peck: Yes. Well, actually it was moved up. So we're supposed to be finished with it in August. And it's supposed to be out by early fall, even maybe August.

So we're definitely pushing for it to get out there. It's a lot of people who are asking for it, which we're really excited about.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I am very excited for that. So, Improving School Mental Health on Amazon right now. Go grab that. And then also, we've got something to look forward to from Charle Peck and Joshua Stamper.

And Charle, what is the best way for people to connect with you? I'm sure there's some spaces where people could find even more about you.

Charle Peck: Well, the easiest for everybody to remember is just go to thrivingeducator.org. That's where everything is. All the information, the speaking, the PD, that program I mentioned before.

But if you want to email me, please do. My first name is spelled C H A R L E and then at thrivingeducator. org. Reach out. We have a lot to talk about, a lot of work to do.

Lainie Rowell: Yes, and it's my job to make this as easy as possible for people to get to you and your amazing resources like the book. So I'm going to make sure everything's in the show notes.

So friends, if you're driving right now, you can just wait until you are safely parked and then go into the show notes and tap away. And we are so excited for people to get a hold of all of these resources. Have Charle out. She is such a delight and a just the wisdom, the brilliance. I really encourage people to connect with Charle Peck.

And Charle, thank you so much for being here.

Charle Peck: Wow. Thank you so much, Lainie, truly.

Lainie Rowell: And thank you all for listening.

Episode 98 - The Surprising Way Sliding Door Moments Can Lead to Profound Gratitude

Shownotes:

You can choose your adventure with this one - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

And you can find the article on Thrive Global!

• ⁠⁠The Surprising Way Sliding Door Moments Can Lead to Profound Gratitude⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Episode 97 - Dealing with Feelings with Marc Brackett

Shownotes:

Join us for an eye-opening chat with Marc Brackett, where we unravel the secrets behind emotional intelligence and bust some major myths about our feelings. Marc takes us on a journey through the emotional landscape, showing us why there’s no such thing as a "bad" emotion and how understanding our feelings can transform our lives. With a mix of personal stories, science-backed insights, and actionable strategies, this episode is your guide to dealing with feelings. Don’t miss out on this engaging exploration that’s sure to shift your perspective on feelings and emotional intelligence!

About Our Guest:

As the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, Dr. Marc Brackett is professor in the Child Study Center at Yale, and author of the best-selling book, Permission to Feel , which has been translated into 25 languages.

An award-winning researcher for 25 years, Marc has raised over $100 million in grant funding and published 175 scholarly articles on the role of emotional intelligence in learning, decision making, creativity, relationships, physical and mental health, and workplace performance.

Marc is the lead developer of RULER, an evidence-based approach to social and emotional learning (SEL) that has been adopted by over 5,000 schools across the globe, improving the lives of millions of children and adults. RULER infuses the principles and skills of emotional intelligence into school systems, enhancing how administrators lead, educators teach, students learn, and families parent. It has been proven to boost academic performance, decrease school problems like bullying, enrich classroom climates, reduce teacher stress and burnout, and enhance teacher instructional practices.

Thrive Global Article:

From Theory to Practice: Marc Brackett on Dealing with Feelings

Connect with and learn from Marc Brackett:

Website
Book
LinkedIn
Facebook
Instagram
X

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Well, hello, Marc. Thank you so much for being with me today.

Marc Brackett: My pleasure to see you again.

Lainie Rowell: So I'm going to say, and I'm not trying to embarrass you, but years and years ago, the first time I met you in person, you were keynoting an event and You absolutely crushed it. It was the first time I'd heard you speak.

You just completely wowed the room, me, and then the organizers happened to sit me at the table. I was a speaker there as well, and you ended up sitting right next to me after your speech, and I didn't even know what to say. I was so like, oh my gosh, this guy is like really smart. I don't know what to say to him, but you are the most nice, genuine, brilliant person.

And I just, I just had to get that out there.

Marc Brackett: I appreciate you saying it. And it's been a lot of fun watching your career as well.

Lainie Rowell: You've been very supportive and I appreciate that. Had to get a little bit of gratitude out there. And I'm so excited to talk about your work.

One of the things that I really appreciate that you share through your books, through the web series, the webcast, all of it, is you say there's no such thing as bad emotions. And I think this is really important because I think a lot of us get it wrong thinking things like anger and stress and anxiety are bad.

But, You like to use the word unpleasant instead of negative emotions, if I've caught that correctly. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you feel like that's an important distinction?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, I think it's mostly because the way it's interpreted. So in psychology, you know, people talk about negative and positive emotions.

Happiness is a positive emotion. Sadness is a negative emotion. You know, people figure that out pretty quickly. But I think then the problem with that language is that it, it makes us think that we don't, like nobody wants to be negative. And so that means that the goal is to get rid of the negative to be positive.

And I wish it were that easy to just like get rid of the negative to be positive. Now that also makes an assumption that being positive all the time is a good thing. And it's not a good thing. Actually I did research on this that was published recently, that when people are overly positive, you know, they make sometimes worse decisions even about their health.

So, going back to the pandemic, people who are happier took more risks and didn't wear masks as much, which is interesting. They didn't engage in social distancing as much as others. And so you know, when you, you know, think about it, like even when you're spending money, right, it's like you're in a good mood.

You're like, yeah, I'm going to buy that outfit or that piece of furniture that might be more expensive than you want to spend. And so again, assumption is that positive emotions are the ones you want to grab and have all the time and negative ones, the ones you want to dump and get rid of. And so when you go to the negative emotions, which I call unpleasant feelings or emotions, Anger, right?

It's a real feeling, you know, and certainly we've seen in our own society very legitimate reasons for different groups of people to feel angry and to say that that's a bad emotion just makes no sense because it's a signal that there was an injustice that needs to be dealt with. And so I hope that kind of makes it clear.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I think it does. And if I'm understanding correctly, I feel like we first of all want to have the full human experience. It just wouldn't be...

Marc Brackett: even if you didn't want to have it, you're going to have it.

I mean, like, let's face it, the pandemic hit, you know, we're spraying our groceries with Windex. It's not the most pleasant feeling.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah.

Marc Brackett: And so life is, you know, couple of years ago, I lost one of my close friends to cancer, you know, not a pleasant feeling, but a feeling that I had to deal with, you know, of loss and sadness.

And so to deny people, you know, those feelings, it's to deny people what it means to be human.

Lainie Rowell: And I do think that's one of the things that's really challenging, is finding that point of, okay, how can we help people live their best life, to flourish, if you will, without overly imposing, like, this is what you need to feel, because maybe it makes me feel uncomfortable if you don't look happy or it's like, I want to take care of the people around me, but to me it feels like a difficult needle to thread.

Marc Brackett: Well, it's also, there's assumptions in there, which are that, when we're angry, we're irrational, that when we're sad, we can't be good friends or we can't be present.

It's like, these are kind of stereotypes that we've created around emotions. And I think we have to move beyond the idea that, for example, like, in the parenting world, you know, it's like, it's gotten to a place where sometimes people feel like, well, my kid is sad, so he can't be in school and learn.

It's like, well, you can be sad and still be in class and still learn. You know, sadness is part of reality. We're just going to give you strategies to manage that sadness, because that's what people are missing, are the strategies to help them deal with their emotions. And dealing with your emotions also doesn't mean getting rid of them, you know?

So for example, there's good research to show that just the sound of, of someone you love is a healthy strategy. And think about that for a minute. So just having someone with a soothing, loving voice can help make you feel less activated or unpleasant. And you know, my point of saying this is that, a child, for example, who's in school, who has a parent who may be ill or who is going to be away at work for a few months, you know, and they're feeling lonely or sad. You know, the assumption is that that has to be solved in order for them to be good learners. They have no control over the fact that the parent has to go travel for work or that their parent might be ill.

And so what we have to do is help kids understand their feelings better and have good strategies so that they can have their feelings and also function helpfully too.

Lainie Rowell: That's helpful.

Marc Brackett: I mean, it's a lot.

Lainie Rowell: It's a lot.

Marc Brackett: That's why this is so interesting. It's a lot, but it's just, this is life.

And you know, life is not simple.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah.

Marc Brackett: It's like achieving your dreams in life. You know, it doesn't just happen. You got to work for it.

Lainie Rowell: It's a lot of work. And there's nuance. And I appreciate that. And, with that idea of the nuance and kind of how messy and complicated us as humans are, you have worked in collaboration with others on the How We Feel app.

This is actually an app I use regularly. My son asks to use it. It's really been helpful. And I wonder if you want to share a little bit about this tool that is available to everyone for free.

Marc Brackett: Yeah. Thank you. So something very kind of pleasant happened to me during the pandemic, which was that the co founder and former CEO of the company Pinterest had read my book, Permission to Feel.

And he said, you know, I'm really interested in these concepts. Maybe we could work together to figure out what we can do in terms of building tools to support people and having greater well being. And so we decided to take some of the tools that were in my book and some of the principles and other principles and strategies, too.

And we worked together, a team that that he created and a team that I created. So the scientists and the engineers and the designers, we all came together. And just spent a lot of time thinking about how do you display this in a beautiful way? You know, what are the strategies and tools that people need?

And so that's the How We Feel app, and it has a tool that we call the mood meter that's been around for a while that then asks you to describe your feelings and you can tag your feelings. It has amazing beautiful technology to support you doing breathing exercises or cognitively reframing. We've added new tools like seeing your best self.

And then it has tracking abilities so that you can look for patterns over the course of a week or a month. And you can analyze your data like, is it when I'm with my partner that I'm in the red, you know, or is it when I'm at work that I'm in the green? And then kind of just, you know get some meaning out of that.

Lainie Rowell: I love that you can look for the patterns. I definitely feel like it helps with developing emotional granularity, being able to really with accuracy say this is what I'm feeling right now. Because a lot of times I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but we get into just saying, I feel happy.

I feel sad. It's like, well, what are you really feeling? Right.

Marc Brackett: Yeah, and this is my work in schools primarily, which is giving children specific words to describe their feelings and feelings are made up of other feelings, right? There's some complex emotions. You know, I was doing a lesson actually in California just last week with a bunch of fourth graders on the feeling word of regretful, which by the way, I was going into this lesson thinking to myself.

Like, I have to really sit with this. Like, do I even know the definition myself? You know, like,

Lainie Rowell: Am I going to regret going into regretful? Yeah.

Marc Brackett: Exactly. But the kids were incredible. And I asked them to come up with other feelings that are associated with regretful. Like some kids said, well, sometimes you might feel shame because, you know, when you're regretful, sometimes you might feel guilt.

Sometimes you might feel trapped. Like these were fourth graders having this conversation with me, which, you know, I give the school a lot of credit because they've been working with RULER, which is our program now for 10 years. And so these kids grew up with a lot of emotion talk. But like they understood that concept extraordinarily well.

And they understood the difference between feeling regretful and just feeling sorry or feeling regretful and feeling guilt. And that's what this work is about.

Lainie Rowell: And I love how when you identify where you are. it asks you, do you want to shift? Do you want to move somewhere else?

Marc Brackett: Do you want to not? You must.

Lainie Rowell: Exactly, which is, is very important. And then, like you said, it's, we want to be able to, to identify the emotions and then have strategies if we do want to move. So I think that's really helpful. And I also love the idea of the patterns, which when I share this app with people, I do encourage them to use it to look for the patterns to see, is there something going on that maybe is, is there that we didn't see before.

And so, this is all connected to your book, your best selling book, Permission to Feel, and can you tell us a little bit about that? I know it's a wide question, but you talk about being an emotional scientist, not judgmental, why is that important?

Marc Brackett: Well, you know, I think, the term permission to feel sometimes, you know, throws people off, right? They're like, who are you to give me permission to feel? I've always had the permission. And I question people when they say that too, you know, some people have, you know, so for example, I recently interviewed a professor friend of mine, Ethan Kross, who studies cognitive strategies.

And he's like, you know, I really did grow up with a family that gave me permission to feel. And he's one of the rare people that have. It doesn't mean he still didn't struggle with his feelings, but he always felt like he could be his true, full feeling self and talk about his feelings. I didn't have that.

You know, he was like, I want to interview you, because when he was sharing his experience with me, I'm like, that sounds like a really different childhood. And I had good parents. They loved me a lot. But they didn't really know a lot about feelings, neither their own feelings, and they certainly didn't have to support me with mine.

And I don't blame, you know, now that I'm a 54 year old psychologist, I think back, like they really did the best they could because they had no education in emotional intelligence. They didn't know what to do. And so the Permission to Feel is a longer story, but it's just, it's about my own journey.

In terms of feeling trapped with my emotions as a kid because of abuse and bullying, and then having an uncle who was a teacher who came into my life at just the right time and asked me that question, which was, how are you feeling? And he didn't want to leave me with those feelings. He wanted to make sure I was able to do something with them that was going to be helpful.

And you know, you fast forward, that was 11 or 12 years old kind of completely put me on a different trajectory. And then I went to college decided that emotional intelligence was the thing I wanted to know more about. And then I took my uncle out of retirement and we started writing a curriculum together that then became my whole career.

And so I argue just in a very little piece of the book, it's the opening chapter, the whole book is much more skill based, but that we need feelings mentors. We need people who are deliberately in support of our healthy emotional development and who are making efforts to help us be more aware and helping us to learn strategies to deal with our feelings.

And I, by the way, have now, since my book has come out, launched a whole research project on this where tens of thousands of people have completed my research and people who report having had someone who gave them the permission to feel versus not having had someone, have different lives.

They're much more satisfied in their life, they have more purpose and meaning in their life they have better mental health, better physical health, they sleep better at night, and so there's something to this feelings mentor.

Lainie Rowell: I feel like we live in a time where no matter how amazing the work is, no matter how important the work is, you're gonna get people that push back.

And I'm just curious, what are maybe some of the misconceptions or pushback, if you will, about really encouraging the development of the emotional intelligence, becoming an emotional scientist, what have you experienced there?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, I think there's a lot of misconceptions, firstly, the one misconception is that the field of social and emotional learning, Emotional intelligence is just trying to get people to talk about their feelings all the time.

And I'm the first person to say, like, I don't want to talk about my feelings all the time, and nobody wants to listen to me talking about my feelings all the time. That would not be productive, right? I have a friend who is an oceanographer. I can tolerate maybe 15 minutes of a conversation about oceanography, and I'm like, you gotta go talk to somebody else about it.

And so, we're going to have feelings throughout the day. We want to be aware of our feelings, want to know if our feelings are helping us or hurting us achieve our goals. And then we want to have strategies to deal with our feelings. And so even research would show that it's not productive to just endlessly talk about feelings.

And, you know, we get pushed back on this in the field because some people are like, I just want to vent. And it's like, I know that's what you feel like doing, but actually it's not that productive.

Lainie Rowell: Right.

Marc Brackett: What's more productive is having someone like me or a friend. Listen to you and then say, you know, like, I hear you.

But let's think about what might be helpful for you right now. You don't want to perseverate. That's not helpful. You don't want to ruminate.

A friend of mine posted something online about something that was unpleasant that happened and then everybody commented on that person comments on top of that.

And I was like, Oh, you know, it's just like, that's not helpful in general. We think it is because we want to just get it out. We want to tell everybody what happened, but it tends to not be great for us to do that. What tends to be helpful is getting perspective and kind of managing it effectively, which doesn't mean denying the feeling.

Lainie Rowell: Right. That's where there's nuance.

Marc Brackett: Yeah. Yeah. It's a nuance, but it's a really important piece for people to know. Firstly, I mean, that's just the core that people have feelings. Those feelings need to be expressed. Otherwise, they're controlled or repressed or denied or ignored, they show up in other places like ulcers, like aggression like not living the life you want to live because you feel emotionally stuck, not helpful either.

I think really importantly for your audience, is that it's very, very clear now through multiple which are studies of studies. So recently, my colleague, Chris Cipriano published a paper with a bunch of other friends and colleagues showing very clear effects on the impact of teaching social and emotional learning.

It's like incontrovertible evidence, that you teach these skills and not only do you get better physical and mental health and better relationships, but you do better academically in literature and math and other subject areas. So when people start saying, well, this is taking away from academics, or it's not good for kids.

I always just say, how much have you looked at the research? And by the way, I'm biased because I am, I'm both a program developer, I'm a writer, a researcher, speaker on this stuff. So maybe you don't want to listen to me, even though everything I say is based in science, I don't make stuff up. But if you don't want to believe me, look at the larger studies of studies, and you'll see that it's very clear that these skills are helpful in achieving some of the most important things in life.

Lainie Rowell: You and I both spend a lot of time in education and knowing how, yes, it is going to help us physically, emotionally, also the activating the learning and, That's all really, really important and I wonder what you've seen, because your book is for everyone, it's not specific to education, although you give examples of education, what have you seen in the workplace regarding Permission to Feel?

I'm just kind of curious.

Marc Brackett: Yeah, interestingly enough, so I've done some research, and I also have a company that does training and consulting for big companies, specifically emotional intelligence in the workforce. A.. People are hungry for it. And B, believe it or not, more people feel like they have someone to talk about their feelings with at work than they do at home, which is interesting.

And I've questioned people about this and I think the rationale behind it is that, like, you're a mom or dad or whatever, you have kids and you are, like, you're kind of, you're stuck in a relationship. Right? Meaning that, like, the feelings never go, they're always there, you know, in the morning to the evening to the night, whereas, like, if I have a friend at work who's going through some difficulty and they want to chat about it, we go out for lunch, we talk about it, but then they go home, I go home, and we kind of move away from it.

And I think there's something to that in terms of why it's easier at work than it is at home. But I have found that workplaces are hungry for this. As a matter of fact, I just got off the call. I just literally, as I was taking a walk about an hour and a half ago, I had a phone call.

I can't mention who it was with, but it was with a university department that is falling apart because of the lack of emotional intelligence in the leadership and among the adults. And so they're like, can you come in? This is the best of like, can you come in for a 30 minute workshop to teach everyone how to regulate?

And like, we have to talk about this way. This is a little bit more complex than the 30 minute workshop. But so here that's another one of the challenges, something I'm writing about at present, which is that I think we've identified that people need strategies and skills, but we are a quick fix society, and some people, of course, need to take medication to support their mental health, and I'm a firm believer that that's important for a lot of people.

The question is, for how long do you need to take that? That's one big question. The second is, is it helpful? The third is either way you still have to relate to people in the real world and you need real cognitive and relational strategies to support you in dealing with your feelings because, you know, every time someone triggers you at work, you can't just pop a pill, right?

You've gotta like have a workmate, you've got a boss, you're gonna be in team meetings. Yeah. And we need to help people learn strategies on how to, A, be more emotionally intelligent in the way they interact. And I just published another study in schools, actually, I dunno if you saw this paper just recent.

Schools where there are leaders with higher emotional intelligence, there are teachers who are happier and healthier, more productive. And we even showed that during the pandemic it mattered, that it was actually more important. So if you were an educator who was, impacted, strongly by the pandemic, whether it would be that you got COVID or someone died in your family, something, you know, heavy.

If you worked in a school where the leader demonstrated higher emotional intelligence, you were less burn out, you were more satisfied with your job and you were less likely to wanna leave your job.

Lainie Rowell: Is part of that modeling, is it emotional contagion? Is it both? How is that transferring?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, that's a good question. So there's two ways to think about it. More than two, but I'm just gonna give you two right now. One is the interpersonal piece of it, right? That like, do you ever like, have you been around people who really can't regulate?

Lainie Rowell: Never. Yes, I have.

Marc Brackett: Even for themselves, right? They're, they're just for self regulators.

Like you watch them, you know, just not do a great job at dealing with their emotions. Either they, you know, whatever they do. And then sort of like that, that kind of like, you might lose some trust in that person as your leader, right? Like, my goodness, my boss is falling apart. They can't handle the stress, so how are they going to be helpful for me?

So that's one piece of it. And then the other piece of it is that the interpersonal aspects of emotional intelligence are really important. Meaning that you have to know how to talk to people. You have to know how to say, like, if I come to you as my boss Lainie, and I say, you know, Lainie, I'm just like overwhelmed, you know, and if you say to me, like, Marc, get over it.

Not helpful. If you say, let's talk about it for the next three hours,

you know, you're not going to get anything done. I'm not getting anything done. But if you have ways of kind of supporting me and saying, I hear you, why don't you try this? Or, let's try this.

Or even if it's in a team meeting, like for school, if a principal is hiring an emotional child, there's a pandemic, right? The principal can walk into that meeting and say, I'm just letting you know, like, I'm, I'm freaked out. The world's coming to an end. And like, I don't know what's happening with anything.

And everybody's like, oh shit, you know, like versus someone who comes in and says, you know. These are really weird times and none of us can make the predictions about what's going to happen. There's a lot of unknowns. A couple of things I want to share. One is we're in this together. I got you. I'm going to be here for you.

We're going to find ways for us to get together, have conversations around it, to help each other, to co regulate, maybe not using those terms, but to be supportive of each other. Totally, same exact feeling of anxiety. One is expressed that activates everybody and makes everybody freak out. The other does it in a way that is helpful and supportive and makes people feel held.

Lainie Rowell: Yes, and that reminds me of, I don't know who came up with this saying and let me know if you don't agree with it, but that concept of be a thermostat, not a thermometer, because that thermometer is just saying, it's hot in here. But that thermostat is regulating the temperature and trying to make a difference.

And so when you gave that example of someone like a principal coming in, that's anxiety I'm feeling because now I'm like, Oh, I don't, I don't know what's coming.

Marc Brackett: Yeah,

Lainie Rowell: it's contagious. I might have walked into that meeting totally fine, or, at least, better than when I walk out of it, right?

It is really contagious, so. Ooh. Now, moving into the webcast. Am I saying that right? You call it a webcast?

Marc Brackett: I do. It's not the most probably popular term, but it's all I could think of,

Lainie Rowell: No, it's fine because you know, podcast is like saturated. So I like that it's something different to say.

So in Dealing with Feelings, you have a focus on emotion regulation tips. And you're bringing in these thought leaders and you're interviewing them and you're really asking for them to share what are the evidence based strategies that you use. So tell us a little bit more about the webcast which just started. Ethan Kross came out today and I haven't had a chance to listen to it but I'm very excited to because I really love his work, but I listened to Jewel and I listened to Angela Duckworth, so tell us more.

Marc Brackett: Yeah, so I decided to do this project because for two reasons.

One is that I use social media and I was getting really annoyed with what I was seeing celebrities or influencers just saying stuff like, you know, throw your anxiety out the door and I'm like, really? Like that's your advice? You know, it just, it was really irritating for me.

And I noticed that a lot of the YouTubers. that were doing the work, or Instagrammers, TikTokers. It was all like big personalities, kind of know it alls. And it just, it really was offensive to me, you know, as a neurotic introvert, who's also a scientist, and I'm like, not working for me and not really sure it's working for anybody because it's not actual thoughtful content.

And so I said, I know that people don't love long form content. But I wanted to show people what the research shows is helpful, and I also want to do it with interesting people. And so Jewel I've known for many years, and she had a very serious mental health crisis growing up, and she's dedicated a significant aspect of her life to healing and also helping.

And so what I wanted to do was interview her to see and learn what she had learned and then pull what I heard from her and then for other people show that that actually is a research based strategy. And so like the way she was using self talk or the way she was reframing or the way she was doing breathing exercises well, you know, she's not a licensed psychologist.

She's learned from many people. And so like Let's pull and show people that what she's doing is actually research based and helpful, and how do you do it? It's the how that people want to learn. And with Angela Duckworth, interestingly enough as the person who studied grit and wrote a book on it she basically said, that she kind of lost her grit when she was working on her next book, and like, confidence was really low, and I was like, what's your strategy?

And her number one strategy was social support and perspective taking, not. Just staying up three to four o'clock in the morning and trying to write when she was kind of losing it. She kind of took a step back and just sort of like talking with people about what was going on and hearing what they had to say.

And I appreciated that. And there's a lot of research that shows, that getting some distance from whatever is bothering you can help you deal with it better later on. Ethan is going to be talking about distancing. I have James Gross coming on in a couple of weeks.

And then I have also some really interesting people, one, her name is Dr. Alfie Berlin Nolan, who studies Black mental health, and Dr. Jenny Wang, who studies Asian mental health. So really getting a cross cultural perspective on this and how different identities may require different approaches to dealing with emotions.

Lainie Rowell: I'm hooked already. I'm going to listen to every episode. Thank you, very much. Thank you. I, I really do think it's very empowering and it was really helpful to me to hear that even someone like Angela Duckworth can have struggles because, you know, she's a best selling author, she's brilliant, U Penn, all this stuff, and so when you get to hear that it's not sunshine and rainbow and chasing bunnies through the field for everyone and that there are times that we all go through.

That was really, really helpful for me. And I love, I won't say it correctly, but I love when she talks about, the thing about perspective taking is you don't always know when you need help getting a perspective. And so I'm,

Marc Brackett: yeah, when you're in it, when you're deep in it, you don't know that you need it.

It's just like when you're yelling and screaming at someone, you don't realize in that moment that your emotions are driving your behavior, right? Otherwise you'd be like, well, why am I doing this?

Lainie Rowell: Exactly. Marc, what is something that you just cannot say enough? I mean, you would stand on rooftops and yell it. You just can't tell people enough. You really want them to understand this message.

Marc Brackett: I think, you know, again, this varies by day, by week, by month for me, because I have so many things that I think are important. Right now, what I'm thinking about is that it's not on the individual to develop emotional intelligence.

It's on the community and that to do this work, it has to be done, across communities. So that means homes, schools, workplaces. We think of a skill development as like, I'm going to go learn how to do the skill. This is different. You need to be developing these skills on your own when no one else is developing them is not as helpful.

Lainie Rowell: It needs to be contextual, right? You need to be in those experiences to develop and practice. Is that fair to say?

Marc Brackett: That's the second piece of it. Actually, it's a little slightly different, which is also really important. What I'm saying is that, a kid who's being bullied in school can't go to emotional intelligence training only by themselves to figure out how to deal with the crappy environment, right?

That we've got to create emotionally intelligent environments, which means that the other kids in the classroom have to be learning this stuff, the teachers have to be learning this stuff, the bus drivers have to learn it, you know, the community members need to learn it because we want to create emotionally intelligent communities, not just emotionally intelligent individuals.

Lainie Rowell: So Marc, I get the sense with the Dealing with Feelings that maybe there's more to come and you know this already, 'cause I've told you this, I've read your book twice.

Permission to Feel, I've read twice, so I'm very much anticipating I've heard you say there's another book coming. Any, any little hints you wanna give us about that?

Marc Brackett: Yeah, so Permission to Feel was my first kind of book for the real world. I've done a lot of academic stuff, but I wanted to put out something that would help people understand why emotions matter and why we need to give each other permission to feel and learn the basics of emotional intelligence. And that's been around for a couple of years now. It's still doing well. I'm grateful for that. But what I learned throughout the pandemic was that people want more around the regulation and I wanted more around the regulation.

And, you know, for me one of the things I always say is that I don't really think I know something until I can write about it. And so until I can explain it well, that other people can understand what's going on in my head and what I know and what I read about it doesn't feel real to me. And so that's when I decided to write a second book called Dealing with Feelings.

Which will be out in about a year from now, meaning like March or April of 2025. And one way to do that was to start my webcast so I could interview really smart people and learn from them because I don't know everything for sure and I wanted to kind of meet smart people and, and ask them questions that would help me think more critically about my own work.

Lainie Rowell: It's so great. I will be eagle eye for the pre order link when that comes. I know we've got some time, but I'm eagerly anticipating it. And I know that people are going to want to connect more with you and your work. So Permission to Feel the book, I will put the link in the show notes. I will also put a link to the webcast for Dealing with Feelings.

And how else would you suggest people connect with you?

Marc Brackett: I think, you know, my website, which is, I've just redone, which is just Marc with a C, Brackett, B R A C K E T T dot com. It has links to everything from our school based programming, which is RULER, to the How We Feel app, to my work in organization, which is called Oji LifeLab, to the webcast.

If you want to read recent articles that I've written it's all there, so just MarcBrackett.com, and then you can follow me on socials from there as well.

Lainie Rowell: Marc, I know I mentioned this at the front side, that you have been not only an inspiration from afar and watching all the great work you're doing, but you have been very generous to me, dare I say, as a friend.

And so I am very grateful to you and the work that you're doing for me and for others. So thank you for this time.

Marc Brackett: You're welcome. I appreciate the work you're doing.

Lainie Rowell: Thank you.

Episode 96 - Does Flourishing Mean We Need to Be Constantly in Bloom?

Shownotes:

In case you haven't heard, I'm thrilled to bring you something new: I'm aligning podcast episodes with ⁠⁠⁠⁠Thrive Global articles⁠⁠⁠⁠ so you can choose your adventure with each story - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

This episode is "Does Flourishing Mean We Need to Be Constantly in Bloom?" and you can find the article on Thrive Global!

• ⁠Does Flourishing Mean We Need to Be Constantly in Bloom?⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Episode 95 - A Limitless Mind with Jim Kwik

Shownotes:

Have you ever wondered what it takes to transform your brain from being your biggest obstacle to your most powerful ally? Let's dive into the world of Jim Kwik, a renowned brain coach whose life-changing journey from a childhood brain injury to becoming a global leader in accelerated learning and brain performance offers invaluable lessons. In our chat, we discuss the power of meta-learning, and navigating the digital deluge. Our conversation also ventured into the areas of brain nutrition, nootropics, and the fascinating concept of identifying your "brain animal type." This is one episode you don't want to miss!

About Our Guest:

Jim Kwik, the founder of Kwik Brain, is a world expert in speed-reading, memory improvement, brain performance, and accelerated learning. After a childhood brain injury left him learning-challenged, Jim created strategies to dramatically enhance his mental performance. He has since dedicated his life to helping others unleash their true genius and brainpower to learn anything faster and live a life of greater power, productivity, and purpose. 

Thrive Global Article:

Your Brain is Your Superpower: Jim Kwik's Guide to a Limitless Mind

Connect with and learn from Jim Kwik:

Website: JimKwik.com
Instagram: @KwikLearning
LinkedIn: Linkedin.com/in/JimKwik
Facebook: facebook.com/KwikLearning
Twitter/X: @JimKwik
YouTube: youtube.com/c/JimKwik
Book: Limitless EXPANDED: Upgrade Your Brain, Learn Anything Faster, and Unlock Your Exceptional Life

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: [00:00:00] Well, hello, Jim. Thank you so much for being here.

Jim Kwik: Lainie, so good to be here.

Looking forward to this conversation.

Lainie Rowell: Oh, me too. By the way, is it okay if I call you

Jim Kwik: Jim? Yeah, yeah, of course.

Lainie Rowell: You know, I always like to hear people's backstory. There's no one that's more important to ask this question to than you, and I want to frame it in a way that is very specific to you. I'd love for you to share a little bit about your origin story.

Superheroes have, right? Superheroes have stories, and I think you're a superhero, so.

Jim Kwik: Oh, you do your research for sure. Yeah, I mean, my inspiration was my desperation. You know,, by trade, my mission really as a brain coach is to help people have their best brain possible.

I didn't have one for a good part of my life. When I was five years old, I had an unfortunate accident, or fortunate, depending on how you look at it. In kindergarten class, I took a very bad fall headfirst into a radiator, and I had this traumatic brain injury. And from it, I had these what people labeled as learning disabilities, processing issues.

At the age of five, six, seven, I would get these migraines every single day, really poor balance, poor focus. Teachers would repeat themselves over and over again, and I would just pretend to understand, but I didn't really, nothing really registered. It took me three years longer to learn how to read, and when I was nine years old, I remember slowing down in class, and I was being teased by the other kids, because I just didn't understand the lessons like everybody else.

And a teacher came to my defense. She pointed to me for the whole class and said, leave that kid alone. That's, That's the boy with the broken brain. And so that really became my, my moniker, that label became my limit. And it's something I heard on a, on a regular basis. Not only being teased using that, you know, broken brain, but I said it to myself all the time.

So every single time I did badly in school or wasn't picked for sports or you name it, I would always say, Oh, cause I have the broken brain. And eventually when I was 18, I met a mentor that turned me on to some more resources and resourcefulness. And I really got curious about how the brain works so I could work my brain.

Like, how does my memory work so I could work my memory? How do I learn how to learn as opposed to just learning what to learn? Like math and history and science all the classes they teach in school And so really what I'm known for the past 32 years is teaching people two things, Brain optimization in terms of really taking care of the hardware that three pound matter between our ears, which is our number one wealth building asset that we have and Also the software which is how to focus how to concentrate how to how to memorize things how to read faster and understand more how to think more clearly how to solve problems.

I want this world to be just better and brighter one brain at a time.

Lainie Rowell: I've read your book, Limitless Expanded Edition just released in November, which I really encourage people to read my five star Amazon review already out there.

It just is such a compelling story, and even if someone hasn't had something to the extreme of the brain trauma that you experienced, I think there's a good portion of us that can relate on some level to school not working for them. And, there's such importance in your work, and particularly, this, learning how to learn.

And you overcame such tremendous struggles. And I even just talked to you about the migraines, like migraines are so debilitating. It's such a lot to overcome. And then you made it your mission to help everyone. Can we talk a little bit more about meta learning and how important it is to learn how to learn?

Jim Kwik: Yeah, so meta learning is the art and science of learning how to learn. So Limitless really is a book on brain optimization, mindset, and learning how to learn with chapters on memory and focus and studying. And I just always thought it was interesting. And again, in school where they teach you what to learn, but not how to learn, you know, you go to somebody and say, like a teammate or your children, or whatever, say focus, or remember, or study. It's like, kind of like going to somebody saying, play the ukulele, who's never really been taught how to do that. And I think if there's one skill to master today, it's our ability to learn rapidly, and translate that learning into action is an incredible competitive advantage.

In a world where there's so much information, I believe the faster you can learn, the faster you can earn. Because knowledge, today, is not only power, knowledge is profit. And I don't just mean financial, that's kind of obvious. When you can easily remember client information, product information, and give sales scripts or speeches without notes.

When you can read substantially faster and absorb more information, clearly you have a big advantage in your career, in school, in life. But I also mean just like all the treasures and, you know, for your relationship, everything gets better when your brain is better and everything gets better in your career and your personal health and your productivity and your overall performance.

So yeah, and it's one of those things in school where I feel like they take it for granted, where you just assume, you know, how to be able to memorize something. It's really hard nowadays, especially with technology to maintain your focus with our devices, right? With every ring and ping and ding and app notification, social media alert, we're like, driven to distraction.

We're also driven to overwhelm. Nowadays, to keep up with, you know, your industry or your schooling, your subjects that you're studying, it feels like you're taking a sip of water out of a fire hose. And it's just gonna get worse, that distraction, that deluge, you know, that Another thing about forgetfulness, they call it digital dementia, where we're outsourcing our memories to our devices, and it's storing everything you need to remember.

It's keeping your to dos, it's keeping your schedules, it's memorizing, it's holding all your phone numbers, all that stuff. And again, I don't want to memorize hundreds of phone numbers, but it should be very concerning when we've lost the ability to remember one, or remember our PIN number, our passcode, or something we just You know, we're going to say, or something we just read, or something that was said to us, or somebody's name.

I feel like when we, we have these lapses, we lose time, we lose precious opportunity, we can lose trust. And on the other side, you know, it's been my experience. We have the largest academy on accelerated learning and brain optimization in the world. Students in every country in the world, so we get a lot of feedback.

I, I realize that regardless of your age, your background, your education level, your financial situation, gender history, IQ, you know, certainly genetics could play a part of it, but really we have more control than we realize. And it's important to be able to really delve into our brain.

I often wear brains on my shirts or points to my brain in photographs. Cause I want people to just, realize that we need to take care of the thing that we don't see all the time. Like, you see, your skin or your hair, your clothes, your car, so you know when it's kind of getting messy or deteriorating, but we don't see the thing that controls everything in our life which is our brain, and I really think it's our superpower.

And so, yeah, it's a real mission.

Lainie Rowell: When you talk about the digital deluge and the digital dementia, that really resonates with me. I have almost tried to gamify the gamifying that I know is happening to me through my phone. So I'm trying to use some of the things that are in there to not get distracted all the time. So there's parental controls and all these things.

I turn time limits on for myself. I have it on my phone that I actually cannot get to any social media until a certain time of the day. Because I just find, for me personally, if I start my day...

Jim Kwik: How's that been for you?

Lainie Rowell: It's been life changing. So I have for years had my phone on silent. Do not disturb is basically how I live, which can sometimes be annoying. And I do sometimes have to turn it off. Like, our house is quiet because no one has notifications turned on at our house.

My husband has his phone on silent, I have my phone on silent.

Jim Kwik: Wow.

Lainie Rowell: But I will have guests stay at our house sometimes, and their work doesn't permit that. They have to be available. It is anxiety for me. I am so stressed out when I hear it. I know not everyone can live in silent or do not disturb, but it's been life changing for me.

Jim Kwik: Yeah, I think do not disturb. I think airplane mode are two of the most important functions on our phone. I'm pretty pro technology. It allows even this conversation to happen. It's a wonderful way to educate, to empower people, but sometimes our devices do drive us to distraction or forgetfulness, or sometimes our devices do the thinking for us, or sometimes with all the information and doom scrolling, we can be overloaded, overwhelmed, and it could zap our mental energy, and we wonder why we're just spent so early, or we feel like a little bit sad or depressed because there's all this comparison online that we have unconsciously, and, you know, just to remind everyone who's listening.

And they might be listening on their device which is pretty meta. I would say that technology is a tool for us to use, but if the technology is using us, then we become the tool. And I think you're a great example that we can influence and control these devices to really manage the input.

And because I feel like sometimes it's important to disconnect, to reconnect to ourselves. And it's great when you're using technology for something that's purposeful, even entertainment or distraction, if you need that. But if we're doing it out of like habit, because we're conditioned to do it because every like, and share, and comment, and cat video, whatever, we have this dopamine flood, the molecule more, and it just makes us like keep on going to infinity then I, then I feel like if it's taking us away from the things that are important in life, then we should have some kind of intention or mindfulness to the things that we put our focus on.

Lainie Rowell: I love technology. I worked for Apple for six years. I was in the room when Steve announced the iPhone.

I am a huge advocate of technology. I'm also a real advocate of just being super intentional. Everything you're saying, like just being really thoughtful about when is it helping and when is it hindering. And that's such, to me, an important point in your work is you're talking about well, yes, we want to use the device to capture the phone numbers.

But when are we challenging our memory? When are we exercising that muscle, right? So what are some tips you have for helping us to either improve our memory or be less distracted? Something to get out of that digital deluge and digital dementia.

Jim Kwik: Yeah, we could go through quite a few practical, pragmatic things that I feel like could really make a difference in our productivity and our performance and definitely our peace of mind.

So obviously I don't think anyone would say it would be good to be on their phones all day, 24 seven, right? And also I think everyone could agree, you know, zero is not really an option, you know, in today's age. So there's something in between and it's always different for, for each person.

There's a quote in Limitless Expanded that says life is the letter C between the letters B and D or B stands for birth and D is death and life is C is choice. That we always have a choice. to, to engage into something, you know, we always choice what, what to eat that day or who to spend time with or what we're going to feed our minds, you know, and so much more when it comes to our devices my protocol personally, and I invite people to just maybe test it and on themselves, because ultimately I think the listener is the best expert about themselves.

I have a non negotiable where I just won't touch my phone in the first 30 minutes of the day in the last 30 minutes a day. It just works for me. I'm not saying it's practical for every single person, but here's why. Because behind every principle, there's a promise. When you wake up in the morning, you're very relaxed and you're very suggestible.

And if the first thing you do is pick up your device, which I did for years, I just feel like afterwards, I'm very sensitive to how I feel. And I don't feel any more mentally healthy after everything. I feel very distracted. I feel more overwhelmed and very reactive, meaning that I feel like when you pick up your phone, it wires your brain in that very relaxed state when you first wake up to be distracted.

And you wonder why you can't focus later on that day because the first thing you started your day with was flexing your distraction muscles. And whatever you do consistently, you get better at. And I think we're getting better at being distracted. And we wonder why we can't focus with our significant others with, people at work, with our clients and customers, and it's not only just making us distracted, it's making us more reactive, meaning you can get one message, social media message, a voicemail message email, all day.

text message, WhatsApp, whatever, and it could highjack your mooood for hours! And I just don't know anybody who could build a quality life to the way they want if they're just reacting to things, as opposed to being proactive. For me, the alternative is what do I do? I mean, I have my morning routine, which people can see online.

And I'm not saying do everything, but just everything is very intentional and I have a family, and I have a pretty, pretty intensive career, but I still make time because I think if you want to win the day, you just have to win that first hour of the day.

So what I do is I just, , for my mind's sake and my mental health sake and my performance sake, I would just keep my eyes closed. When I wake up instead of grabbing my device off my nightstand, I just don't keep it on my nightstand. I keep it in our bathroom. So it just, habit design 101 is in your environment, setting you up for success, and you wanna make the things that are good for you easier and you wanna make the things that are not so good for you, more difficult. So you don't have to use willpower. But I just lie in bed for two minutes and I imagine myself coming back to bed like.

I finished the day and my wife asked me how my day was and I just imagined myself saying, wow, today was really great. You know, we crushed it today. It was amazing. And then I asked myself what had to happen in order for me to feel that way. And then I work backwards from there because it's clear in let's say sports when you celebrate, because there's a clear scoreboard, but I don't think people have a really scoreboard and most people use our to do list. I don't think that's probably the best way because we can have 100, 200 things on that to do list and never get through those things.

So I go backwards, I say, in order for me to feel that excited about how that day went, what are three things personally and three things professionally that happened? And I focus on those six things throughout the day, because it's not even about time management. For me, it's about priority management.

And the maxim there is the most important thing is to keep the most important thing, the most important thing. And I make those six things the most important thing that day, and it's very achievable. I find that if you're persistent, you could achieve it, but if you're consistent, you get to keep it, right?

And so I focus on those six things. I usually don't touch my phone, honestly, until I get one of those six things done. So that's kind of my. Just simple things that I do. And then the last half hour a day, I just don't want to touch my phone for a number of reasons. One is the light that comes out of it.

You know, could fool your mind into thinking it's still daylight and you know, create that melatonin, which is the, the hormone to help you relax and kind of a trigger to. to go in that parasympathetic, rest and digest, that sleep kind of space. But I also don't pick up my phone, not only for that, is I just don't want to see a thousand different contexts.

I don't want my executive functioning to be stimulated like that, especially a lot of the stuff that's coming in unfiltered. And I think it's so important to stand guard to your mind with all the news and some of the things that might not be the most empowering thing to look at before you want to just rest and be safe and go in that place. And so I just make the choice not to do those things. And instead I have like an evening routine that just really works for me to get good sleep and perform well the next day.

And then throughout the day, there are times where like, like even now I haven't been on my phone for the past couple hours and I just, I feel like I'm more creative that way.

And again, Not everybody can do that. So I'm not suggesting that they can, but when I'm on it, I mean, I'm not so strict about it where it creates anxiety. It's similar to diet. I realized that when I was so strict with my diet, it kind of canceled out. I had so much anxiety around eating that I, it just canceled out any benefit that I would get from that specific diet.

We always make these choices. There's always a trade off for it. And, you know, if I need to just turn off and just kind of binge watch something for half an hour, then I'll do that because it serves a purpose. But I also won't complain about the things like, so I don't mind people could do whatever they want to do.

Who am I to. just, you know, to impose, like, you know, my thoughts on people. But if people are complaining about things and they're not doing something about it, then I feel like that we can't be upset by the results we didn't get from the work we're not doing. And if our devices are keeping us from doing that work that could advance some area of our life, then I feel like then it's, it's something we should.

Be intentional. More intentional about.

Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you framing it, how you're starting your day and ending your day. And when you're managing those priorities, you are allowing yourself to be in a better state of learning and flow, which to me, flow is really important.

That's just something I wanna get into is often as I can, ideally at least once a day. So you have to make that space. I appreciate that.

Jim Kwik: No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. I hope everyone who's listening would challenge themselves they don't have to take our words for it, but maybe they could see how they react, you know, and maybe do a little bit of a a digital detox or set borders and boundaries because I think part of self care is not just eating well and going to the spa. I really think part of self care is putting borders and boundaries around the things that are important to you. Like, your peace, your time your relationships, , the place, because sometimes we do just doing so much and people get burnt out.

And I found that sometimes we're Burnt out not because we're doing too much. Sometimes we feel burnt out because we're doing too little of the things that really matter. And sometimes what's taking us off the things that are focusing on things that matter and things that don't matter as much. And those could include our devices.

Lainie Rowell: Okay. I have like 20 questions for you.

Jim Kwik: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go. We could do rapid fire.

Lainie Rowell: What are some of the things that we can do to increase the health of our brain. I'll let you take it there. If that's cool.

Jim Kwik: Yeah. There's a whole chapter in the new book on brain nutrition. This is something that people often ask about.

And I think it's important again, taking care of the hardware, right? You can learn the processes and we have plenty of free content online and podcasts and teaching people how to read faster and improve their memory, but you also have to take care of that three pound organ between our ears called our brain.

So there's a higher science called neuro nutrition. And these are elements that help you to be able to have the best brain possible. Now, I always prefer people can get it through food. We talk about some of the best brain foods like avocados and everyone's a little bio individual, right?

So take that in mind. Some people have certain allergies to certain foods or food sensitivities, but generally Some of my favorite brain foods, avocados, which are high in monounsaturated fat and your brain is mostly fat. Blueberries, I call them brain berries. They're very neuroprotective. Broccoli has an ingredient called sulforaphane, which is very important for cognitive health and performance.

Olive oil You know, we've heard a lot about olive oil, eggs if your diet allows, the choline in eggs is a nutrient that plays a vital role in, in brain health. It's a critical component of acetylcholine, which is a neurotransmitter that supports memory and cognitive function. Wild salmon and sardines.

Again, you hear about the omega 3 fatty acids. So if you're not getting like the choline from eggs or potentially other different sources like soybeans, you might want to supplement with it. If you're not getting the the omega 3 DHA, those fatty acids that are crucial for brain health from like fish clean, clean sources.

You might want to supplement with them, but supplementing with the B vitamins are so very important to brain health. You know, B6, B9, B12, Magnesium is vital for brain health, promoting better learning, memory also your mood. And then there's an area that we talk about in the book called nootropics or nootropics.

People pronounce it differently. And these are a little different than supplements. These are very specific substances that can enhance cognitive function executive function, memory, creativity, mental energy, motivation. So, so we put A lot of them in the book and reference the human studies in there.

People get a comprehensive list at BrainNutrition.com as our gift. BrainNutrition.com. Some of the ones that I'll highlight in this conversation, Ashwagandha. Ashwagandha is an adaptogenic herb. It improves mental and physical resilience and may help you to reduce stress. And we know chronic stress has been shown to shrink the human brain.

So it helps with stress, anxiety, improves cognitive function. There is a whole coffee fruit extract that I write about in the book it's a by product of the coffee plant, so it's usually discarded, it doesn't have any caffeine, but it has strong antioxidant effects, a positive impact on cognitive function, there's another nootropic, nootropic called phosphatidylserine, which is a phospholipid, and these are kind of, you know, kind of big, big words for people that didn't Study this, but it's an integral part to brain cell membranes, it's been shown to improve memory, learning, cognitive function.

There's another favorite is Altheanine, which is an amino acid found in green tea, which is if you're watching this on video, I'm drinking it now it's a popular nootropic, it promotes relaxation without the drowsiness, and it can enhance brain function Bacopa. is another one probably aligned with that.

It's an herb used in Ayurvedic medicine to improve cognition and memory. And then going back to the foods, turmeric is a brain food, but it's the active ingredient, which could also be useful to supplement with as curcumin which is a potent anti inflammatory and toxin and benefits. It's been shown potentially to cross the blood brain barrier.

Could lead improvements in cognitive function particularly in patients with Alzheimer's. And so I'm very passionate about that. I lost my grandmother to Alzheimer's when I was seven years old. So these are just some of my favorites. And again, people can get a comprehensive list at brainnutrition.com. And we update it regularly with the ones that that I'm, I'm excited about in our team and our family uses.

Lainie Rowell: I really appreciate you pointing out the bio individual, as I believe I phrased it. And I think this transcends every aspect of our life. We're all unique and dynamic.

So there's no like one recipe for this is how to do it for every single person, right? So that's why going back to when we were talking about being intentional with our devices, there's no recipe. It's like, that's what works for you. This is what works for me. Same thing with the neuro nutrition. And I also think it's helpful to kind of know, and you talk about this in the book too, the brain types by animal, you, can you, I can't, I'm not going to explain it well, so I'm just going to throw it to you, you can go from here.

Jim Kwik: That's a great, that's a great transition. Similar to how foods, people are bio individual. And not everything works for everybody, whether it's supplements or food. Same thing with learning. I realized that after coaching, you know, for as long as I have that some people will really thrive with a technique.

Other people, it won't really work for them quite as well. And so, because everybody is different, have. Different kinds of brains and we've kind of identified four different brain types. And just like there's personalized medicine based on your genetics, or personalized nutrition based on like your microbiome.

You know, so you can see what you really would thrive with. There's personalized learning and leading based on your, your dominant brain type. And so There's an assessment we put online at mybrainanimal.com, mybrainanimal.com, and it's a four minute assessment. There's also a full chapter in the book, and in four minutes, very easy, you could see what your dominant brain type is.

And just really as quick summary, think about brain code, CODE, and these are the letters and it's an acronym. The C is your cheetah, and the cheetah , their dominant trait is action, and so they have strong intuition, they're very fast implementers, they thrive in fast paced environments because they can adapt very quickly, and you might identify as a cheetah or know somebody, you know, who would fit those traits.

The O in code are your owls, and your owls, their dominant trait is logic. And so they love data, they love facts, and they love figures. They make decisions very rationally, right? And these two animals, they would invest different, they would buy different, right? They would also read and remember differently.

So we give people a personalized learning track based on their assessment after they take the assessment in the book or online. The D are your dolphins, and their dominant trait is creativity. They have very strong pattern recognition, great problem solvers. They could often have a vision for themselves or maybe their business or their brand that other people can't yet see.

And they're very passionate about what they see in their minds. And then finally, the E are your elephants, and these their dominant trait is empathy. And these are your community builders. These are people that they have high levels of empathy, so they are very compassionate, they are very supportive, they bring people together.

And it was interesting, when my team took this assessment, A hundred percent of the people on our team were on my customer service team. They're elephants because they, and we didn't hire for them, but people will go and choose roles and responsibilities based on their strengths. So they, they have high empathy.

There are community builders in our app and, on social media. They want people to feel seen and heard. Our CFO, they took the test and they are, they are an owl. And I assume you want an owl, someone who loves numbers and loves the data, could do forecasting and projections and expense reports.

My business partner, our CEO, she's a dolphin. She has this vision, you know, like a Walt Disney or a, And JK Rawlings. And she's bringing us closer to that vision and mission. And so everybody's a little bit different. But I realize, you know, again, after three decades, it's not, it's not how smart you are. It's how are you smart?

It's not how smart you are. It's how are you smart? And we all have ways of expressing genius. And so this way, once you understand your brain type, then we give you protocols on how to read better based on which animal you are and how to remember names based on which brain animal you are.

You could also use this for parenting to see what your kids are, what your spouse is. You can use this for hiring. You can use this for managing. You can use this for sales, right? You know, a cheetah wants, if they're selling to you, they're going to get right to the point.

They don't want to waste time beating around the bush because they have a very clear goal in mind. They sprint, right? But an owl could respect a well thought out presentation, social proof and case studies showing that your product or service works. A dolphin, you would sell them by talking about the vision and how their future aligns with that vision.

Or an elephant. If you're selling to an elephant, great, give them facts, you know, and, and great, give them a set goal and a vision, but really what they want is the relationship, right? They want to feel that they trust you, that there's a rapport, that they feel seen, that they feel heard, and those elephant qualities.

And we're not anyone one animal, just like if you're right handed doesn't mean you don't use your left hand. It's just, we have a natural propensity to go to our strengths. And when we understand what our strengths are, we could find roles, responsibilities, career paths, where we could be in our element, where we really thrive, where there's less friction and more passion and purpose.

And so I feel like it's so important nowadays to, to have the curiosity to know yourself. And that's why people. You can go to therapy or you journal or you meditate or you take assessments like this because it gives you greater insight and introspection to who you are. And then once you have the curiosity and know yourself, also having the courage to be that person, right, to be yourself also to be bold.

And then I feel like. Life is difficult for one of two reasons, either you're leaving your comfort zone, right, and sometimes it's hard to be that person that you think that you are, you claim that you are, and then I think life is also difficult if we stay in our comfort zone too long, and life can get very difficult also, and so I feel like there's this balance, and even getting that flow state is that balance of where challenge and competency, you know there's a collision there where the challenge is not so great where in our competencies isn't so high where we feel bored, but also we don't want to be in an environment where our challenge is so great and our capability is too low, then we're stressed, right?

But again, in a flow state where we lose a sense of self, lose our sense of time, where things become effortless, where we'd be able to feel our best and perform our best, part of that is really understanding who we are and leaning into it, because I truly believe to all the listeners and readers that there is a version of yourself that's patiently waiting, right?

And. The goal is we show up every single day until we're introduced, because you are the greatest project you're ever going to get to work on, and so we need to take time, make time, to to create magic.

Lainie Rowell: That was beautiful to me, especially what I hear you saying is know yourself and also know that you're not finished.

I always say unique and dynamic because I think we are all so different, but we're also constantly changing and evolving and that's. That's the goal, right? We're getting better every day. I hope to be better tomorrow than I am today. Okay, I'm looking at the clock. I would talk to you for hours if I could, but I want to respect your time.

So, first of all, I want to just say I really want people to check out the book, check you out on the socials. What would you say is the best way for people to connect with you and your work, Jim?

Jim Kwik: In whatever the learning style they prefer, if they like to read Limitless Expanded is we're very proud.

Limitless, the first edition, which came out a few years ago, did over a million copies. So we donate all the proceeds to charity to build schools for children in need and Alzheimer's research for women. Women are twice as likely to experienced, experienced Alzheimer's than men. If you'd like to listen, certainly the book's on Audible.

And we have a podcast, 400 episodes. Roughly every episode is only 20 minutes social media is a wonderful place I mentioned a couple of assessments and downloads at brainnutrition.com and mybrainanimal.com, but yeah, 95 percent of what we put out there is absolutely free, and so we really want to democratize this and bring this information out to the world, so I really appreciate the opportunity to share this with your community and, I want to thank you so much.

I feel like nowadays so many people like out of fear, they're shrinking what's possible to fit their minds, and I understand that because, you know, fear, you want to be safe, and maybe, and be a little bit I don't know, Less risk averse, but I feel like also that we could do the opposite.

We could expand our minds to fit all that's possible and that would be my invitation to everybody to take one small simple step. I don't know what it is maybe it's taking a screenshot of you know, wherever you're consuming this and tagging us both there so we get to see it and share one choice that you're going to make for a better, brighter brain or share your brain animal or, you know, share one thing you're going to do.

Maybe it's not going on your phone in the morning first thing or at night, or maybe you're going to eat more blueberries or you want to share your brain animal or something like that. But I feel like when you share it, you get to learn it better because when we teach something, we get to learn it twice, and that way your fans, your followers, your family, your friends, whoever is following the person listening or reading this right now can have a positive impact also, you know, on them.

Lainie Rowell: Oh my, okay, so my K 12 educator heart is just bursting because I love, I always talk about teaching others.

Because that is one of the best ways to learn. Also, you've universally designed, we talk about universal design for learning in K 12, you've universally designed your content, you make it so accessible and that is just so powerful. So thank you so much for your time. I know I have to let you go. I'm going to put all of your contact information in the show notes.

Thank you so much, Jim.

Jim Kwik: All right, have a great one. Bye now.

Episode 94 - Emotional Contagion: Catching Feelings That Improve Well-Being

Shownotes:

In case you haven't heard, I'm thrilled to bring you something new: I'm aligning podcast episodes with ⁠⁠⁠Thrive Global articles⁠⁠⁠!

That’s right, my friends, this means you can choose your adventure with each story - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

This episode is about "Emotional Contagion: Catching Feelings That Improve Well-Being" and you can find the article on Thrive Global!

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Emotional Contagion: Catching Feelings That Improve Well-Being⁠⁠⁠⁠

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

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Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Episode 93 - Shattering Collective Illusions About Learning and Working with Todd Rose

Shownotes:

Join me for an eye-opening chat with Todd Rose, where we dive into the intersection of neuroscience, psychology, and learning. Ever wondered why the one-size-fits-all approach in schools and workplaces feels so limiting? Todd's here to explore how we can move beyond that, appreciating everyone's unique talents and paving the way for systems that truly nurture individual potential. This conversation is all about challenging the status quo and discovering how we can all thrive by being ourselves. If you're ready for a fresh take on unlocking human potential, this episode is for you.

About Our Guest:

Todd Rose is the co-founder and CEO of Populace, a nonpartisan think tank committed to ensuring that all people have the opportunity to pursue fulfilling lives in a thriving society. Prior to Populace, he was a faculty member at Harvard University where he founded the Laboratory for the Science of Individuality and directed the Mind, Brain, and Education program. Todd is the best selling author of Collective Illusions, Dark Horse, and The End of Average. He lives in Burlington, Massachusetts.

Thrive Global Article:

The End of One-Size-Fits All: Shattering Collective Illusions About Learning and Working

Connect with and learn from Todd Rose:

Website – ToddRose.com

Books – Collective Illusions, Dark Horse, and The End of Average

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

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Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

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Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: Hello friends. Wow. Get ready. Todd rose is someone I have had on my guest wishlist for a very long time. So I'm super excited to share this conversation. Where we're going to talk about the intersection of some of my favorite topics, neuroscience, psychology, and learning. Todd is absolutely brilliant and he makes these concepts.

We talk about very accessible. We're going to get into the importance of appreciating the unique and dynamic in each of us. We talk about challenging. The one size fits all model that we see in education and the workplace. We also talk about designing. Cultivation systems that unlock human potential.

A little bit about Todd before we jump in.

Dr. Todd rose is the co-founder and CEO of populace, a non-partisan think tank committed to ensuring that all people have the opportunity to pursue fulfilling lives in a thriving society. Before. Populace. He was a faculty member at Harvard university where he founded the laboratory for the science of individuality. And directed the mind brain and education program. Todd is the best-selling author of collective illusions, dark horse, and the end of average. I am a long time fan and follower of Todd's work. And you're going to love this episode with that here's Todd.

Welcome, Todd. Thank you for being here with us today.

Todd Rose: It's great to be here.

Lainie Rowell: I'm very excited to chat with you about your work.

You have been someone I have been looking to and following for quite a while, not to creep you out, but I am very familiar with your work and so I'm excited for this conversation. Now, this is me partly being a linear person, but also I just don't feel like there's any way to not start with your story.

So can you tell us a little bit about just the early days that whole journey, if you will.

Todd Rose: Yeah, no, I think, I think you're right. I mean, in this case, there, it, there's a through line. Yeah, so I grew up in, you know, rural America, and for me, which is sort of funny given the things that I do now school did not work.

And, and I will say, I, I definitely contributed to that not working, you know, I probably was not the easiest kid, but, as you know being in education, as you are, the way our system's structured now, if you struggle, that tends to compound, you know what I mean? You don't learn certain things, you get moved on, and then you just, it, it culminated for me I like to say I chose to drop out of school but in reality, they just kicked me out, because it was like, early in my senior year in high school, I had a 0.9 GPA, and there's no way I can graduate, so the principal called my parents and said, He's just messing around so I will say we mutually agreed that I would leave I was oblivious to like what that could actually mean for my life That's fine. It'll be fine. Shortly after that my girlfriend at the time found out she was pregnant.

We got married It ended up by the time I was 20, one we had two kids And I'd had a string of minimum wage jobs probably a dozen of them and we were on welfare and it was just not going well. And so, really out of desperation, it wasn't out of like an epiphany of like, I knew a lot, I just knew this wasn't working.

As you know, look, when you have kids, it's your life. It does change. You feel a responsibility for these innocent human beings. They didn't ask to be born. They didn't ask to be born to me as a parent and so I decided, I was like, I don't know what else to do, but my dad was the first high school graduate in our family and the first college graduate, and I watched him go back to school, and he was a mechanic and became a mechanical engineer, and I watched that change our lives, And so I thought, well, maybe that.

So I got my GED and I went to school at night at Weber State University in Ogden, Utah. It was open enrollment. And we had just enough money, my parents and my in laws to pay for one year of school. And they just said, basically, if you want it badly enough, you'll figure out how to get good grades which I've never done.

And so that was the beginning, right? And, I'll say, I'm happy to keep rolling, because Weber State taught me so much that would then shape everything if you don't mind.

Lainie Rowell: Please, please.

Todd Rose: Okay, great, so at Weber, here, here's the thing, you know you're on the clock, if I don't figure out how to make it work, I have to go back to, like, which just didn't work, I, it was so bad, and so all I knew was that the way I had done things in the past didn't work, and so I was paying a lot of attention.

I knew a lot more about myself. Not, not great, but I was making choices that were closer to who I was, the kinds of classes I would take, the kinds of professors I would engage with. I started learning what didn't work. But there's this like really, really pivotal moment for me.

I'd been there for about a year. I was actually doing okay, just out of like brute force, I have to make this work and I'm sitting in a, a big history class in an auditorium, which didn't work very well for me, but I couldn't get out of it and I was complaining to my, my buddy Steve about this just does not work.

I've got to figure out how to pay attention and do okay. And he said, oh, this is nothing compared to, he was in the honors program, he told me, and I didn't even know what that was, but he starts explaining that he is, oh, I wish it was just lectures, he's like, in the honors program, there's no lectures, there's just 10 to 12 students, you sit around in a circle, and you, you talk, and he's like, there are no tests, you just have to write things, and he's like, I don't think there are right answers, He said, all we do is debate.

And I was like, this sounds so amazing. Like, I, I honestly, I honestly thought that can't be how education is. He was like, no, this is, so I, as soon as class was over, I made a beeline to the honors program, which was the top of the hill on the second floor of the library had its own floor. I went right in, went up to the secretary, a woman named Marilyn Diamond.

And I said, I want to be in the honors program. And she said, great, let's have you meet with the director, see if I can get you in. They did. I sit down with him, and he's so nice, and he's like, hey, we're really proud of the honors program, I'm excited that you're excited, here's just formality, let's just go through, let's fill this out together, and we'll get you going.

But pretty soon we get to the, so, so what was your high school GPA? , I said .9, and I'm not kidding, his response, he actually said, what .9? Like I had left off the most important number there, and, and, it's in that moment, it dawns on me, that was impulsive, what am I doing?

This is really embarrassing. And I said, well, 0.9, and I was gonna say a bunch of stuff, but then he just kind of, he was really nice, I will say, very kind about it, he, but he said, I'm sorry, you can't be in the honors program. And so I was humiliated. And so I'm gathering my stuff as fast as possible and I'm going to just get out of there.

Like go crawl into a hole, leave, and I go out the door and Marilyn Diamond, the secretary, her desk is just right outside the door and one of those life changing moments I rush out and she actually just grabs my arm, gently, as I'm walking past. And she said, Hey, I overheard the conversation. If you want this, don't take no for an answer.

And it didn't dawn on me that that was an option, right? So she tells me to sit down on the couch and I did. And it felt like an entire day. It was just a couple of hours probably. She's like, just wait. And the director had to go teach a class. He's like, what are you doing? You know? So funny. He comes back.

And he says, all right, come, come in here. And he said, why do you want to be in the honors program? Because on paper, it doesn't make any sense. So I explained what I'd learned about myself in the year and in college, and that I actually thought this was a really, really good fit. And he said, well, you know what?

I can't let you in, you know, permanently, but what we can do is create a provisional acceptance. And he said, I want you to pick one class and if you do well, I'll let you pick another, and we'll go from there. So I did, and it turned out to be , I mean, just perfect, the best fit, like it was such a good fit to who I was.

And flash forward, I ended up graduating from Weber State with a 3. 97 GPA as the honor student of the year. And it was amazing. And I, I tell you this story for a couple of reasons, one, it does tee up a lot of things that we'll talk about in a minute, but there's two things that I think are really important to that story.

One is, the profound importance of fit, because we often think that people are just talented, or smart, and especially kids, when you're in these standardized environments, and they don't go well, you just assume it's you. Why wouldn't I assume it's me? Some kids are doing just fine. Some kids are doing really well.

So it must be me. But just to live that, to feel the difference between an environment that didn't fit my individuality very well and one that was just perfect for me. And just what it unlocked in terms of not just my ability and my potential, but my confidence in myself was just, I never forgot that and that will play a role as we'll talk about, but there's a second piece that I think is critical because we'll talk a lot about individuality, which I think is really, really important.

But we often, if we're not careful And think of that as like selfishness or isolation or whatever, right? Like individualism. But for me and this Marilyn Diamond thing is like, I worked really, really hard. I put the work in and I'm proud of what I accomplished. But let's be honest, if there's no Marilyn Diamond, this is a different story.

A couple years ago, I got asked back to Weber State, I got an award, for whatever, and I'm there, and it turns out Marilyn's retiring that year. And I thought, what a great opportunity to tell some version of this story, with her in the audience. So I did, and it was great, and the dean who's kind of emceeing, he says, Well, Marilyn, you want to come up and say a few words?

I thought, this is amazing. She comes up, she gives me a hug, she grabs the mic, and she said, You know, it's a really nice story, Todd I don't remember it. And, I thought she was saying, like, you're lying, like it didn't happen. But what it really was, was that everybody had a Marilyn Diamond story.

It was just the way she was as a person. So, what was funny to me, and I think that the takeaway is like, how much we depend on each other, and how much we can do for each other. Because, for me, it was literally life changing, and for her, it was so inconsequential, she didn't even remember it. And I think that's how supporting each other really works.

We tend to think that it's going to be this heavy lift, but once you start to realize, you're part of other people's context, and the things you can do if you're thinking about it right can have life changing effects on other people, and really not be that big of a lift for you.

Lainie Rowell: I really make the connection to, I work deeply in gratitude and thinking of the definition of gratitude is noticing the good, but also acknowledging that often it comes from sources beyond ourselves.

And I appreciate that you're teasing out individuality versus individualism. It's not saying like, we're only out for ourselves, but honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic and I appreciate that. And I just want to go back to the part of your story where you're talking about at the university, you've got someone, your friend who has been kind of progressed automatically into this program for honors, and he sounds like did not appreciate it, didn't like it, like, you know.

Todd Rose: No, in fact, in fact, he ended up washing out of it.

Lainie Rowell: And I'm not surprised, and I think this is something that we see in education, is that certain individuals who like to perform a certain way will do well in certain contexts.

I tend to think about I have a child, I'm taking them both down by not naming which one, but like very much into, they both like to please, so don't get me wrong, but whose motivation for doing well academically has been to please others, and just, I want to get the A, and I want to do well for others.

But the motivation hasn't necessarily been intrinsic, like, I want to learn. And when you don't have that, and you're getting into this honors, where it's a very innovative approach to honors, by the way, so kudos to Weber State, because I don't know that that's how a lot of honors programs were working, because that's very different from what the K 12 experienced.

Todd Rose: And they have, and they have most honors programs are rigidly like standardized tests, grades, it's about prestige. I will say that one of the things I'm most proud of is because of my achievements at Harvard and beyond Weber State changed their honors program permanently. So they actually have interviews.

It's about explaining the fit and it's not about test scores and grades, which I love.

Lainie Rowell: I love that too. And so, yes, and let's not leave out that part of the story because I think that's interesting that you had the 0.9 GPA and It wasn't a fit at the time. You weren't motivated at the time. Is that fair to say?

Todd Rose: That's definitely fair to say.

Lainie Rowell: And so I relate to this and I was one of my children who, for a good portion of my K 12 experience, I just cared about making good grades for my family and for the teachers and this is what I'm supposed to do, so I'll do it. And then I got put into a different education experience where things were very different and I was like, oh, I don't know if I can do this.

And I did not thrive and then I thought, well, that's who I am. I don't thrive anymore. And it took me a really long time. It wasn't actually until I did scrape by to get into college. But it wasn't actually until college that I actually started to love learning again. And it wasn't until almost the very end of college.

But so fast forward in your really inspiring story, you end up getting your doctorate at Harvard.

Todd Rose: Yeah. Yeah. It was funny, at Weber State, I was getting fascinated about individuality mainly out of like, it was a good explanation for my own experience, but at the time there was this rise of what was called the science of individuality, which was a new approach to science in general, which was getting away from aggregate data groups and, and being able to truly study individuals.

And that was so fascinating to me. It was rooted in complex systems instead of just statistics, and I was like, this is amazing, and I was reading up on it, and I read about this scholar, Kurt Fischer, and I was like, whoa, wow, this is amazing, I wanna work with this guy, and at the time, I was reading papers by him, and it said he was at the University of Denver, and I was like, hey, that's like eight hours.

That would be doable. So I got really excited and it turned out my advisor at Weber State knew him and he was like, Oh, this is gonna be so great. You guys are gonna, you have similar backstories. You're gonna love it. So we start talking and it turns out Kurt has moved on to Harvard, which I didn't even know where Harvard was.

I honestly didn't. It just was not even part of the world for me. But I was like, well, I really want to be a part of this. And so, I thought, well that's too bad. Like, it's too bad that he's at Harvard, cause obviously I'm not gonna get into Harvard, but luckily I did and packed up everything we had in a minivan and drove across country and ended up in Cambridge and had a really interesting and bumpy experience, it's like a whole nother country, basically, but had a wonderful education and then I graduated and then I was fortunate, Kurt Fischer had founded the My Unbranded Education Program at Harvard, the first interdisciplinary program in the world that integrated neuroscience, psychology, and learning.

Applied. And one of the things I was most proud of is when he retired, I became the director of that program and was a faculty member, maybe 10 to 12 years at Harvard, and then I left right before the pandemic.

Lainie Rowell: Well, so that's just like so close to my heart because I was a psychology major, went in to be education and have a new fascination with neuroscience, so those all coming together is really a beautiful place to be, right?

And, and I want to say that one of the ways that I came across your work is I do work in universal design for learning, a good portion of my work is professional learning and a lot of times it's for educators and that's one of the things that I'm trying to to move the needle on because we are all so unique and dynamic and you'll hear me use that phrase which I get from one of my besties, Dr Katie Novak because to me it's not enough just to say unique, it's the dynamic that we're constantly changing and your story is so clear that in a different context with different motivation you're thriving compared to in a system that was not serving you well that you were not excited to be in and gladly left as soon as you could.

Todd Rose: Right?

Lainie Rowell: Until you came back.

Todd Rose: You're really hitting on something important and I love that, and Katie's brilliant, obviously. The unique and dynamic because this is all part of it, we're distinct not only in our composition at any given time, but we change systematically depending on the context we're in, and we change over time.

Which is funny, right? Because we often don't take that into account, and especially in education now, look, the idea of, like, mass educating the public is one of the greatest accomplishments in human history, and back in the day when we did that, when we started that, you know, over 100 years ago, there was only one way to do that.

It was either everyone would get a one size fits all education, or rich kids would get bespoke education and the rest of us would get nothing. That was really the bargain. And so if we were having this conversation 100 years ago, I would have been the biggest champion of mass standardized education there was.

Not because it was the best way to do it, because it was the only way to do it. And what I think people have to appreciate now, and I think if we can get there, we're going to be able to get somewhere really great in education, which is That was never optimal, it was just practical, but things have changed so substantially for the better.

Our technology has changed, our understanding of human dynamics, human uniqueness, has changed, right? Such that we can do something about it. It's actually not impossible to give every single child in this country a phenomenal individualized education. That is doable. And, you know, one of the things that is my biggest pet peeve, if you don't mind, just so I can be frustrated by it, is even as we recognize kids, their distinctiveness, we often, and this will get back to the universal design for learning, we often still keep putting in these kids in these environments that are standardized.

We give them standardized learning materials. And then as a cop out, we tell teachers to differentiate their instruction. Like, that's ridiculous. Come on. Like, how about we expect the stuff that we pay for to be flexible and responsive to the known human differences that you will see in every learning environment?

And that, I think, is the genius of Universal Design for Learning, which is, it doesn't capture all human uniqueness, but there are dimensions of how we process information, how we engage, and how we actually demonstrate knowledge that you know in advance. people will differ on. And if you know it in advance, and it's not so idiosyncratic that like, you can design for it.

So, it's like, why not expect that these environments are designed as flexibly as possible, that then supports the human to human relationship, the teacher, the student, the student, the student, that is the actual core of great learning. And so, it's like, we're sort of stuck right now because we have all this capability, but we've got a mindset that is still, like, a hundred years old.

And so, I think that the good news is, is that we're on the cusp of something pretty profound, and I think education is going to look extremely different in the not too distant future.

Lainie Rowell: I agree. And I do appreciate you bringing up technology. Couple things I wanted to process through with you.

One, technology is giving us opportunities to scale that universal design in ways that just were not there, definitely not a hundred years ago. And it's so interesting when you just take a step back and you think, Oh, wow, like our system's only a hundred years old in the grand scheme of things it's just so recent but it's incredibly hard to adapt the system, but we can, we can. And another thing I wanted to say you are so good at acknowledging how amazing teachers are and they're in a tough situation with the system that they're put in, this very resilient system but universal design for learning is upstream it ultimately is what has to be the way that our system is designed because otherwise we are just playing whack a mole trying to differentiate downstream, when we can already assume variability, we can already assume, I know that I'm going to have some kids who are really gifted in understanding scientific concepts, but reading is going to be the barrier.

I know that I have some kids that are going to understand a piece of literature in a way that I can't even understand, but if I ask them to just write it versus put it into art or articulate it verbally. I'm not going to get what's inside of them, right?

Todd Rose: Well, and I think that, one of the unfortunate consequences of having a standardized system for a hundred years, is there's other ideas that kind of came in through like eugenics and some of the darker things which have such a well dark view of human potential and capability and so they give you the bell curve they give you the like only some kids are capable and so what we've had as a result is a zero sum system of education that is really it's just a selection mechanism right it's like let's give everyone some basic experience And then we can't give everyone everything so let's figure out who deserves more resources. And look, if those assumptions were correct, that's a reasonably fair way to do it, right? If we're living in scarcity, if not everyone has potential, then a selection system makes sense. None of those things are true now, none. The I idea of a bell curve is the most nonsensical thing on the planet when it comes to people.

It's demonstrably false. This will sound like a bumper sticker slogan, but I think one of the most important assumptions in modern education and the workplace has to do with human potential. To put it bluntly, I think it is objectively true that every human being is capable of excellence of some kind, which means they have something meaningful to contribute to society.

They do. And we've learned, despite all my colleagues who love IQ tests and other things, notwithstanding, because of the complexity, because of the distinctiveness, the uniqueness, and the dynamics of human beings, you don't know in advance what any one person is capable of. You just don't. You can pretend you can force them into your little world, but it's not how it works.

And so I believe that the major change to education now is that it is not a selection system anymore. It is a cultivation system. And when you realize that the goal of education is the cultivation of every child's God given potential, if you just think of it that way, then it starts to make a ton of sense why it would be unacceptable to do anything other than universal design for learning.

Because anything short of that flexibility is an arbitrary obstacle to the cultivation of some child's potential. Right? It also then leads naturally to, well, why wouldn't we use bell curve tests? It's because they're just, they're just comparative. We're going to use mastery based assessments, right?

Once you just get over that hump of like, oh, no, everybody's got something to offer, our job is to cultivate their full potential, then a lot of this other stuff you and I are talking about it just makes a lot of sense for people.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, and I have a book coming to mind.

Katie gets twice the love in this episode, but George Couros and Katie Novak wrote the book, Innovate Inside the Box. And this is where I think our amazing teachers can get creative. And yes, there are going to be some constraints that they can, you know, advocate. I don't want this, but maybe they don't always have the choice.

But there's still a lot of things I feel like we as educators have the ability to make a change.

Todd Rose: I do not envy the place that educators are in right now. So, you know, my background, my interests now are in, this will just sound wonky, but paradigm shifts.

This is where we're at, we're in a paradigm crisis. The fundamental assumptions of society are up for grabs, and it can go bad, it can go better and so we work to actually shift, like, what can democracies deliver on? What can our society do that it doesn't do now? And in education, the transformation of this institution is what's taking place right now.

We can talk about why I think that's the case, but like the trick , is you're not going to just close down shop and open up five years later under new management. You have to literally like transform this institution while you're still participating in it. And that means that there's no more important constituency than teachers.

And I think that teachers have a really important role for parents in that they can signal that this is valuable. That things like mastery based learning, like flexible time, flexible design, that it's actually valuable, that it's good for learning. Because all of our research shows parents look to teachers to know about that, and then they look to local and regional employers to tell them whether the outcomes are okay.

Lainie Rowell: Well, and I want to connect it to that too, because, to me, this is a system that is so incredibly resilient, it's also the system that Virtually everyone goes through, and I think this feeds the workplace in some of the ways that I would love it if the workplace was more universally designed, if the workplace was more focused on cultivation versus selection, and so I think there's some opportunities there, and I've heard you talk about this before, the principles of scientific management.

I mean, that's what influenced a lot of things, right?

Todd Rose: Yeah, it's rare that when you look back and say, man, who did this to us? That it's, like, one dude, right? Frederick Taylor in the late 20s, early 30s. He's obsessed with the idea that one of the problems in society is we had a lot of waste.

That wasn't wrong. He was right. And that we could be better off if we were more efficient. Also correct. But he believes in this very top down, like this idea that everybody has autonomy and capabilities and potential, he just thought was ridiculous. And the scientific management is probably the most important idea that we all live under that no one knows about.

This is the guy literally that invented the concept of a manager. His proposal was I can give us more stuff by making us more efficient. If you become a cog quite literally, let's divide up labor, the workers, just do what you're told and do it well and do it fast and have managers that plan everything and then we'll all have more stuff.

Which, by the way, he was correct. We got a lot more stuff that way, but we sort of lost our soul. Right? And at the end of the day, what's the point of life? It's not just more stuff. It's the joy. It's the psychological abundance. It's whatever you want to call it, right? Flourishing, self actualization.

But that always depended on things like autonomy and self direction and the ability to pursue fulfilling lives, not just do what you're told. And so that idea of scientific management, it transforms work. And then not surprisingly, what happens in, in the business world will eventually trickle down into education, because if we're all having factories and we're having, you know, standardized systems, then what's the point of education except for to feed that?

And so you see that creep in and things like bells, you know, and rotating through classes and all, okay, fine, whatever. But the idea is we're still like, We're still stuck with that, right? Work is sort of this devil's bargain that like, okay, it's not meant to be enjoyed, you just go do it so they can go find fulfillment somewhere else, but at my think tank, Populace, we have more private opinion data on the American public than anybody else.

And I say private opinion because no one's telling the truth about what they think right now. And so you've got to have methods to get around that. And some of the most interesting things to me, of all the work we've done have to do with the transformation of the workplace in terms of what people really want out of work now, and then also what they want out of education.

And people don't want a better mousetrap. They don't want more of the same. They want pretty profoundly different things. So, for example, at work, the trade off priorities for people are about being able to do work that has a positive impact on other people, to, to be able to show up as yourself, right? That craving for authenticity, which to me is just the expression of your individuality. And yeah, they want to get paid a decent wage. They want, you know, all the normal things, but there's this aspect of they don't need work to be everything, but they do now expect work to be a positive force for the life they want to live.

Same with education. If I could tell you like the one line to sum up what's going on in education in America today is that people want different, not better. And so they want a different purpose for this system. Again, they don't want the selection system anymore. They just don't. They believe their kids have something to offer.

They believe other people's kids do. And they are expecting that this thing actually cultivate that. And it's just that gap between what they want and the reality of the system as it is right now that is causing such a lack of confidence and trust in the System.

Lainie Rowell: When you're talking about your work at Populace, I want you to just quickly explain, because I think the methodology is really interesting, how you get to the private opinion. Because your most recent book, Collective Illusion, talking about, how we are beings of conformity, and so we tend to say things that we think, you'll say it better, so I'm going to stop talking, but you know, kind of, how do you see all that?

Todd Rose: Collective illusions are just basically social phenomena where A majority of people in a group end up going along with something they don't privately agree with just because they incorrectly think most everybody else in the group likes it or believes it, right?

So, as a result, entire groups end up doing something that most nobody wanted to do. Now, we've actually known about these things for a long time. You think about, like, the Emperor's New Clothes, is a, Cautionary tale of that, right? Everyone just keeps going along with this naked emperor, right?

Like, whatever. But the scientific study of it is about a hundred years old. And up until ten years ago, you could have counted on one hand the number of societal Influencing Collective Illusions that existed. But since the rise of social media, for reasons I'll explain, like they're just out of control.

Like if you name anything that matters in American society today, it's a 50 50. Like it's a coin toss whether you are even right about what the majority believes. It's shocking. And so the underlying reason for this is, as you mentioned, all human beings have a conformity bias. We all do. We are not a lone wolf species.

We're a pack species, right? And all that means is, all else equal, you'd rather be with your group, not against your group. This is a survival thing, right? It also is how we get culture and social learning. So we don't have to learn everything the hard way. So there's some benefit to conformity within reason.

But for conforming to work, you actually have to know what your group thinks. Because then what are you conforming to? And this is where we get in trouble. So, your brain for how awesome as it is, it's actually not terribly smart. Because, here's how your brain estimates group consensus. This is no kidding.

Your brain assumes the loudest voices, repeated the most, are the majority. So, let's just focus on social media for a second. So on what was called Twitter, or on X, Pew Research has shown 80 percent of all content is created by 10 percent of the users. And it turns out those 10 percent aren't even remotely representative of the general public.

They are extreme on almost every social issue. So you can see the problem. If 10 percent of people hold an idea, but you think it's 80%, unless you're willing to go against your group, you're gonna either say nothing at all, or you might even lie about what you think to go along with the group. But if enough people stop talking, they start self silencing, then the only voices anybody hears from are these fringes and The Results of Collective Illusion. So, this is where we're at today. We have research on this, but so do a lot of people, that consistently, somewhere between 52-60 percent of Americans, admit to self silencing. Admit! Those are the people who will admit it! That they're, oh yeah, I'm not, I don't, I can't tell the truth about my opinions on most things, like, and so, how does a democracy function if we can't be honest with each other?

We knew for the things we want to do in terms of paradigm shifts, we had to have an accurate understanding of, what do people really want? And it was funny, we started into the private opinion stuff right after the 2016 election, because it was like, well, I mean, whatever you think of that, that was not what anyone thought was about to happen.

And, so, it turned out that there's all kinds of methodologies in academia. For how you get around, say social pressure, complex trade-offs. It's just they weren't widely applied because they, they take a level of sort of expertise. They're, because it's not just polling. They're expensive to do and they're time consuming.

But, from our standpoint, it was like, but if no one's telling the truth, what choice do you have, right? You, you need to do this. So we started doing that and to your point, how do you get to private opinion? Every method that works offers some combination of anonymity and plausible deniability.

Like, that's the key. Here's what's interesting. So we have a couple of methods that we use. We have one coming out in about a month called the Social Pressure Index that literally is measuring across the entire landscape of American culture where are we flat out lying to each other?

Not just self sciencing. We are lying. And what's the truth. These kind of methods, the one I'll talk about right now that, that is, we've done a lot in education is, you can't have everything. This is the funny thing. Like, in education, there's not enough time and money to have everything. So it's not enough to say, do you want social emotional learning?

It's not the right question. Lots of people will say yes to that. What will you sacrifice for it? So it's about trade offs. So we have this methodology we've used called conjoined analysis, which is widely used. In fact, here's my, you know, iPhone. Apple uses that methodology to decide what combination of features and price point go into an iPhone, right?

Because if I say, do you want an OLED screen? Of course, you're going to say yes. But do you want that if it costs $300 more? Do you want it more than you want more memory? Like, those are trade offs. So, Conjoint, instead of saying, Do you want X for education? What we do is we build all these attributes that everything in education could be.

So the last one we did was like, 60 some odd trade off priorities. From outcomes, to processes, to assessments, to what they learn, to who decides. And it's kind of cool. If you take this instrument, and You're never just point blank asked one thing. It will be like, hey, we're thinking about the future of education, like if you're making a choice for your child or for whatever, and you're shown two education or school A, school B.

And it just randomly grabs five of the attributes from the pool of say 60, and that's what school A has. School B has randomly grabs five other ones. That's all you know. Okay, if those were your two choices, which one is a better education to you? And then you do it again, and again, and again, and unbeknownst to you, you're literally trading off every attribute against every other attribute.

Why that works so well is, let's say I'm like, oh, I know I'm not supposed to say, college prep should be the goal, but college prep will show up with other things you care about, it'll show up with other things you don't, so you can't really game it, and we were the first to apply that socially the New York Times ran a front page thing on, eventually showing it's the best predictor of elections, that methodology, so now everybody likes it, which is great but it's into that space. We always do it where you, we can develop a model of like, what are your trade off priorities personally, for education?

And then we always do it again with you saying, what do you think most Americans would say? So now we know what you want, and we know what you think everybody wants. And, it's just ridiculous. When you look at the American public's trade off priorities for K 12, in private, it is all the things we've been talking about.

It's individualized, not standardized. In fact, every individualized attribute ranks higher than every single standardized attribute in America now. When you ask about the purpose, it's like people want to be prepared for college, but they don't want it to be the purpose. It's about prep for careers and meaningful work for kids.

And it's really pretty remarkable. Mastery learning, not standardized assessments, bell curve assessments. Okay, great. Everything you'd hope for, you'd want flexible learning environments. When you ask them what they think most people will say, You get a completely different picture. You get something that looks exactly like the system we have.

They think that the number one trade off priority for people for K 12 is college prep. It's just not true. So we're operating under these illusions. And that, that might sound, okay, well it's just an illusion, well the problem is in education, I can't solve that myself, right? Unless I go to private school, it's sort of like, if no one else wants it, why am I going to agitate for it?

It'll never change. So we all want something different, we don't think we all want something different, so we're all ticked off, right? So we do a lot of work shattering those illusions, using pop culture. television, movies, where you just seed the private opinion in the backgrounds of things that people watch, and you can, you can have quite an effect.

But, I'll just say, the good news is, the fact that these illusions exist, history shows us if you can shatter them, you can unlock change at a scale and a pace that would seem unimaginable otherwise.

Lainie Rowell: I think it's so fascinating how, especially because kind of what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that we're potentially closer together and more in alignment in areas than we think we are, but we don't want to speak out because we feel like we're the minority, but we're actually the silent majority.

Todd Rose: It is shocking, and I'm not just trying to have good things to say. So we have studied private opinion on everything from K 12, higher ed, the workplace, criminal justice, health care, broader culture stuff, our views of success in the American dream, our aspirations for the country, you name it, right?

Yeah, we are divided on a few things, but you will be shocked in private how much common ground we have. The problem is, we just don't think that's true. We genuinely believe that we're in this minority. When we are a silent majority, and so the problem is, is it becomes self fulfilling, right? You're sitting in a society going, I don't want this, but I am pretty sure everyone around me...

Imagine if you thought that most everyone in your neighborhood would steal from you if they could. How would that change how you treat them? You know what I mean? How you engage. This is true in our most fundamental principles, our values, our aspirations for life, for our country. We are walking around, with so much in common, but we believe we are so far apart, and so we behave that way.

Lainie Rowell: And our brains, trying to be efficient, are making these assumptions. We just need to stop assuming we know what people are thinking and feeling and be more curious. Ask the question.

Todd Rose: That's it. That's it.

Social media and our broader technologies have led to a place where you can no longer trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. And that's never going to change. The good news is, the easy way out of this is a deep commitment to tolerance. Pluralism, right? Knowing that, that every time we try to silence someone we disagree with, we are contributing to these illusions.

And at some point, we have to know better. And we have to know that the only people that don't want you to speak up are people who know they are in the minority. Because it is the only tool they have to win. Because if you really believe that most people agreed with you, all you would want is for people to be able to speak freely.

Right? So, just know, if I had one call to the audience is, we can get somewhere pretty amazing as a society. We're not in decline. We're a young country. We're going through our adolescent phase, right? Little identity crisis. Every one of us has a role to play. And it will sound so simple, but I promise you, you will be amazed where we can go together if you do this basic thing.

We've got to find the moral courage to be honest with each other about what we believe. Doesn't mean we're right. We could be terribly wrong. So we can do this respectfully, but you, you owe it to each other to be honest about your views. And we have to find the civic courage to make it safe for other people to do the same thing.

If we do that, these illusions will shatter, our shared values will be revealed, and those will help guide where we go together as a society, including in education.

Lainie Rowell: Moral courage, civic courage, and intellectual humility.

Todd Rose: Absolutely.

Lainie Rowell: I love that. Okay, I'm so sad to end this conversation, but I gotta let you go.

What's the best way for people to connect with you?

Todd Rose: So you can find me online, ToddRose.com. All of our research is at Populace.Org but just Google. It comes up.

Lainie Rowell: Amazing. This has been super enlightening for me, and I'm really familiar with your work. I hope others will check out Collective Illusions, your most recent book.

There's also Dark Horse, the book before that, and The End of Average, where I became a super fan. So, Todd, thank you for this time, and thank you all for listening.

Todd Rose: Thank you.

Episode 92 - The Art of Doing Less and Overcoming Overfunctioning

Shownotes:

Are you an overfunctioner? It’s not a feeling, it’s not a way of being, it’s a way of doing (constantly). And this behavior can lead to loneliness and threaten others’ sense of belonging.

BTW- In case you haven't heard, I'm thrilled to bring you something new: I'm aligning podcast episodes with ⁠⁠⁠⁠Thrive Global articles⁠⁠⁠⁠!

That’s right, my friends, this means you can choose your adventure with each story - read the article, listen to the episode, or explore both.

I hope you enjoy whatever adventure you choose!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Art of Doing Less and Overcoming Overfunctioning⁠⁠⁠ on Thrive!

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Episode 91 - Nourishment for a JoyFull Life with Radhi Devlukia

Shownotes:

Have you ever had such a joyful conversation with someone that you find yourself fully immersed in the experience? That describes my wholehearted conversation with Radhi Devlukia. Adored by millions of followers on the socials for her dedication to cultivating a mindful lifestyle with her vibrant, delicious recipes, wellness insights, and genuine authenticity, Radhi brings deep joy through conscious cooking and eating. As Joyfull, her brand new book, makes its way into our hearts, minds, and kitchens, I’m delighted to share the wisdom and inspiration that flowed from our chat.

About Our Guest:

Radhi is a plant based cook and recipe developer, mission-driven entrepreneur, a fitness & well-being enthusiast and a trained dietitian, nutritionist and ayurvedic student.

Whether it’s her recipes for a hearty main dish, decadent desserts or lighter bites, Radhi creates recipes to bring more joy into your life, more spice into your kitchen and more vitality into your body!

Thrive Global Article:

JoyFull Cooking, Eating, and Living with Radhi Devlukia

Connect with and learn from Radhi Devlukia:

Book: Joyfull 

Website: RadhiDevlukia.com

Instagram: @radhidevlukia

YouTube: @radhidevlu

TikTok: @radhidevlukia

Facebook: @radhidevlukia1

About Lainie:

Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, social-emotional learning, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠linktr.ee/lainierowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Website - ⁠LainieRowell.com⁠

Twitter - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@LainieRowell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Evolving with Gratitude, the book is available ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And now, Bold Gratitude: The Journal Designed for You and by You is available too!

Both Evolving with Gratitude & Bold Gratitude have generous bulk pricing for purchasing 10+ copies delivered to the same location.🙌

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/ewgbulkdiscount⁠

📚➡️ ⁠bit.ly/bgbulkdiscount⁠

Just fill out the forms linked above and someone will get back to you ASAP! 

Transcript:

Lainie Rowell: [00:00:00] Hello friends. I hope you are ready to be joyful because that is what you are going to get from this episode.

I was incredibly blessed to have this powerful conversation with Radhi Devlukia .

I'm so deeply inspired by her work in cultivating a conscious lifestyle through her recipes, health tips, wellness videos, and so much more. You may have already seen her on Instagram. And as we're releasing this episode and I'm sharing the article on Thrive Global, her book Joyfull is being released. No matter when you're listening to this, you are going to get so much out of this conversation. We talk about our relationship with food, the journey from being a seeker to a sharer. We talk about gratitude and savoring. She shares a hugely important practice that is highly underrated and very impactful. There's so many important topics that come up in this conversation that I think we connect to all different aspects of our lives.

I'm so excited you get to hear Rahdi's wisdom. Enjoy.

So welcome, Radhi. How are you today?

Radhi Devlukia: Yeah, I'm doing really well. How are you?

Lainie Rowell: I'm amazing now that I get to talk to you. And I'm so grateful to your team that they gave me a sneak peek at the book, Joyfull, coming out... By the time people are listening to this, it's out. Like, launch day is when I'm releasing this.

Radhi Devlukia: I know!

I'm so glad that you managed to look through it. Did anything scream out at you?

Lainie Rowell: I actually made a recipe for my family last night. And. I just couldn't wait. And so I got a chance to start looking at it. I was like, I'm going for it. And first of all, the recipe started with "one- pot". So you had me right there.

And it was Lemony Spaghetti. And I'm, I'm like obsessed with lemon. It's one of my favorite ingredients. And so I made that for my family. I actually have quotes for you that I want to share from my kids because my husband's out of town so he didn't get to try it. He's very jealous because we had a lovely meal without him but he's he's away on work and he'll get to have some when he gets back.

So my daughter who's 13, Kendall said, "I'm super selective with my food and I loved it." And then my son Blake who's 10, his... first of all his eyes just completely lit up when he took his first bite and he had it without the gremolata.

So he had it without that first and then I'm like, do you want to try it with this on it?

And he's like, yeah, I'll try it. And he goes, wow, that's even better. And I was just like, that's amazing. So he said "it's my new favorite pasta".

Radhi Devlukia: Oh my god, you know what? Hearing that from children, because children have very specific palates as well. I find that, you know, if, I always think that if my niece and nephew love, I do like a 10 minute pasta sauce for them.

And when they tell me they love it, it means way more to me than when, you know, even a food critic comes and tells me that they love the food. I'm like, this is everything.

Lainie Rowell: Well, I had to start off with sharing that because, first of all, My daughter, she called herself selective. There are other words that other people would use, but I appreciated her word choice.

And so she doesn't have a huge spectrum of foods that she selects from. But my son, we actually think he might be a super taster because he has like, he doesn't, he doesn't like chocolate, which sometimes, I don't know if this is like a myth or not, but sometimes they say super tasters, people who are really sensitive to taste don't like chocolate.

Anyways, they both loved it. We are super excited to make our way through the book. It's just amazing.

Radhi Devlukia: Well, thank you so much for trying the recipes. That honestly is like, there's one thing about buying the book and one thing about having the book, but then when people start just, you know, diving into it, like that's why you write it because you want people to experience it.

And so thank you. Thank you for introducing it to your children. That has made my day hearing that they enjoyed it. And yeah, I can't wait for you to try more and give me some good feedback about them.

Lainie Rowell: Well, we're super excited.

Let's take a step back. I just, I couldn't wait. And by the way, I I've been through the whole book. It's so beautiful. And it's really more than a collection of recipes. And I want to hear about your relationship with food, how you went from you know, to use your words, a serial seeker to authoring this book that is about really conscious cooking, conscious eating, and just thriving.

So tell us a little bit about the journey.

Radhi Devlukia: Yeah, sure. So I born and raised in London. And I come from an Indian family where food was and is and always will be the center of everything. It's how we share love, it's how we share laughter. It's how we just create our relationships with each other.

It's always been through eating great food every single day. And my mom had a full time job when I was growing up. And still every single day there was fresh breakfast, lunch, and dinner that was served to us from so much love. And I, at the time, you know, it kind of was so normal to me because that's what I had grown up as.

But as I grew up, I realized how sacred and how wonderful that is to have a mom that has been able to create, not just You know, so it's such thoughtful meals and they were just vibrant and delicious. And she would think about all the ingredients she was putting in and how she was nourishing us. And I grew up and I was born vegetarian.

And so and obviously from an Indian background. And so all the flavors were just so colorful and vibrant, so many spices in there. So I think I feel like a lot of my. love for food and my elevated palate, as I definitely feel like I had growing up was because I experienced her, my mom's love through cooking and then also experienced such delicious food.

And so my palate and my love for food definitely comes from experiencing that love through her. And then I actually studied nutrition and became a dietician in hospital for. For my college degree, that's what I did. And it was great because I always wanted to be in a patient facing job.

At first I wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't get the grades for that. And so I ended up doing nutrition, but I'm so grateful that I did that because it just began this journey of having a healthy relationship with food and really understanding like what food does to our body, how it fuels our body, what it breaks down to and how those different parts affect our body and how it can cause disease in our body.

And it was the foundation of understanding the science behind food. And then I moved to New York and I started, I came across the practice of Ayurveda. Now Ayurveda for anybody who doesn't know is a Ancient health science over 5, 000 years old, and it's all based on holistic and natural means of healing our body.

And what I realized was I had already been practicing that from a young age because so much of it was passed down from my ancestors to my parents, my grandparents, and they passed on through our family. And so whether it's having specific spices when we've got a cough or a cold or whether my mum's making a tumeric patty to put whenever I've had cuts or bruises on my leg, you know, spices and healing the body through nature has been such an integral part of my growing up.

But when I got the opportunity to study and learn about it, it felt like. You know, when you find the people that feel like home, this practice felt like home to me because it felt like the most natural way of connecting to my body, the most natural way to connecting to people and the environment around me.

And so I just fell in love with it. And so that brought me closer to the way that I wanted to live my own life. And so I tried out all these Ayurvedic practices, the way you can, the way you cook your food, conscious cooking, mindful eating. And it really is just a practice of understanding your body. Iro means life, by the way, and veda means knowledge.

So essentially it's a, it's a science of life. And so essentially what it teaches you, it sounds more complicated than it is, but it brings you back to yourself. It teaches you how to take your health back into your own hands, how you can understand your body deeply, what it needs on an individual basis, not based on what this influencer told you or what this book told you to do.

No. What does my body need? How do I tune into it? And how do I create an environment externally and internally to have optimal health? And all the different ways of doing that. So that's basically what I've done in a nutshell and how I got to write this book is honestly, I see myself as a grateful student of many incredible teachers, and I'm so my way of showing gratitude to the teachers that I've had in my life is by pouring it into a book where I feel I can share them with other people.

So really, I see myself as a bridge and a vessel for people to connect to them and the knowledge that they've given me, but for me to be able to, I have a platform for me to be able to share it with, it would be a lost opportunity when I've gained so much from it. And so my teacher once said, knowledge is so useless unless it's shared.

And so it's just my way of trying to, yeah, share whatever has brought me joy in my life and, and give it to other people.

Lainie Rowell: It's so beautiful. So I'm just gonna, you know, Amazon doesn't let you do a review for a book that you can't actually hold in your hands yet. , and so I have it.

Radhi Devlukia: I know. I heard about that.

Lainie Rowell: Yeah, so, but I already have it written, and so I will, as soon as soon as...

Radhi Devlukia: You're just so sweet. Thank, thank you.

Lainie Rowell: Oh no, it's my love language and so gratitude, and when I hear you talking about it, and that's one of the reasons that I am so drawn to you and the things that you share. And I love how you're talking about this conscious cooking, mindful eating, and you know, gratitude is a huge part of my life, that is my focus for the last, you know, so many years.

And I love that on your website, every recipe you end with, say a prayer of gratitude, serve with love, and eat with joy. And it's just like I'm getting like all the warm fuzzies just right now even just reading that it's such a beautiful like take a moment And I just wonder if you want to expand a little bit more on kind of what should we be doing to be more consciously cooking, consciously eating?

Radhi Devlukia: For me, it starts with everything from when we just start to pick the ingredients that we're cooking. And so what I mean by that is, one, is this going to benefit my body? Is this going to benefit the people that I'm about to feed?

Well, whoever you're cooking for, taking into consideration from the moment you start buying those ingredients, how is this going to affect me? And so whether that means looking in at the back and looking at the ingredients. List trying to identify the things that you don't necessarily want to invite into your body and you don't want to have in your body to picking foods that might be seasonal, to really help to nourish your body in that environment.

That it's been, that it's been growing in and that it is used to. Am I picking foods, which will affect my body in the right way for this season that I'm living in. And so we can start from when we're buying the ingredients and then when you get to cooking it, there's a, there's so much evidence around.

You know, I don't know whether you've heard of that study where they play different music to different waters, and then they froze them, and then they saw all the different particles and how they combine after having been played all these different types of music, some aggressive, some calm. And so, what that taught me and what Ayurveda taught me is that energy is everywhere.

It's in everything. And so we have the ability to transfer energy. And so through our hands, through our intentions, when we start to cook, not only do we have the opportunity to fuel our physical body through the food we're eating, yes, but we also have the ability to fuel someone even deeper than that through what we pour into the food, which is why when you eat your mom's food, there is nothing like it.

It's not the food. It's the love that gets poured into it. And so the next step would be, what am I pouring into this? What do I want to feed this person, not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually for them to feel more than just a physical nourishment. And so there's that process of when you're creating the meal and then there's a really beautiful practice where you know, everything that we receive and everything that keeps us alive comes from the universe.

It comes from the earth that we live on and so there's a lovely practice in my culture and in Ayurveda where you offer back whatever the meal that you have got in front of you, you offer it back to the universe, you offer it back to everyone and everything that has been instrumental in bringing that dish to you, to your plate.

And essentially what that brings about is gratitude. And so having a moment of prayer or a moment of gratitude before you eat. You know, there's been studies to show that when your body's in anxiety and it's doing so many different things, you know, eating your burrito while you are, do reading something or while you're online, your body actually doesn't get a moment to realize that, oh, food is coming.

Let me start creating the enzymes on my tongue that is necessary to break the food down. Let me start creating the juices, the digestive juices that need to be flowing through my stomach to get ready for the food that's coming. We forget to send those cues because we're so distracted. And so the food actually digests so much better when you have a moment just before where you are having peace, mindfulness, and a little bit of gratitude.

And people may say, you know, I don't have time for that. Well, it takes 10 seconds. "Thank you so much for this food that's been put in front of me. I appreciate it so deeply, and I hope that it nourishes my body, my mind, and my heart." That took like 10 seconds. And so having that practice before you eat, and then, you know, conscious eating is... Consciousness just means presence. I'm presence. Am I being present with this food? So when I'm eating it, what can I notice? What flavors am I picking up on? You know, what, how is it making me feel as I'm eating? Is there a warmness that comes by eating this comforting food?

Is it salad that's making me feel a little bit lighter in my body? You know, starting to recognize how the food we are eating is also affecting our body. And so that can be when eating and then afterwards It's starting that process all over again when we eat our next meal. And so it can take us all the way from buying the food to the moment that it actually comes through our body.

Lainie Rowell: Basically to me, the book is about nourishing the body, the mind, and the soul. It's really very, very, I don't have a good word for it right now, but it's, it's all encompassing. And the love that you talk about with like a mom making food for her kids, like that comes through in the book, you to us, like I feel that. And so there's so much in the book. There's There's a grace that comes through in that you're making recommendations, but you're not trying to push something on people in a way that's like If you don't do this, you have failed or, you know, there's, it's such a, it's such a lovely way that you approach this.

Radhi Devlukia: Through my life, I think about the ways that I've learned and deeply been able to create change in my life. And it's never through fear. It's never through feeling someone is pressuring me into something. It's actually either having seen people lead by example and watching and observing them.

Or it's been through love and knowledge. And so I've noticed that in my life. And so for me, I don't even think about like the, the idea of judgment or scaring someone into something doesn't create sustainable change at all. But education and love has like the power to do that completely and, and create such transformative behaviors and habits.

And so I'm so happy that you felt that through the book too.

Lainie Rowell: The love and the knowledge come through and even when you're giving recipes and you're saying you could use this and then in parentheses or this and it's, it's very freeing and liberating to feel like, okay, it's not a, it has to be so rigid and this, or it's not good at all.

And so that to me is just something I wanted to share as, as a reader and a fan. Now again, this is more than a collection of recipes. There's so much you share in Joyfull. One of the things that you say is, "what you eat, along with your daily habits and the thoughts you think, has the ability to completely transform every aspect of your health".

So I would love for you to share a specific practice or, I love the word ritual, because to me ritual is hopefully more mindful, but something that is underrated yet impactful. Something that you're like, I wish everyone knew this.

Radhi Devlukia: Breath. Honestly, breathwork has changed the way that I exist through the day.

Like, whether it's breathwork that eases my anxiety in the morning, that energizes me midday, or that puts me to sleep and relaxes me in the evening, I use breath to really navigate my emotions and my moods. So, when I first, before I came onto here, I took three deep breaths and when I notice myself speaking really fast and I'm getting a little bit excited or anxious, all I have to do is actually notice my breath and pay attention to it and it completely changes how fast my mind is going, how my body's feeling.

Just by taking three breaths now, if anybody just did it that's listening, you'll notice your shoulders soften, you'll notice things like slow down in your mind, your body, everything just changes and so One of the biggest powers that I have found that has helped me strengthen my workouts when I'm wanting to do an intense workout, my breath will help me get through it.

And so every part of your life is impacted by breath. And actually it's in Ayurveda it talks about how nowadays there's very few of us that take actual deep breaths. We all live in shallow breath. That's how we function throughout the day. And so that one reduces our energy levels because we're actually not efficiently breathing.

We're not getting enough oxygen through our body our mental focus, our attention, our anxiety levels, like all of that is impacted by just not breathing right. And so it's something we take for granted because we do it however many times a day, so many times a day. But how many times are you paying attention to it?

How many times are you noticing, Oh my gosh, my breath is only coming up to my neck. Do I actually take a full deep breath where I feel the air travelling down my throat, my chest, my stomach, and into my entire body? How often are we doing that? And so Breath has been really powerful for me, and so breath is definitely, and actually in the book I talk about the different types of breathworks that there are, because depending on the speed or the pace or the style of breath you do, there's different breathworks that do different things for your body, which is incredible.

And so I share a lot of the different types of breathworks you can do to induce a different effect on the body.

Lainie Rowell: It's so powerful. And I'm just going to share a quick little story. Cause this is, this will start to sound like a champagne problem. I don't get massages very often, but I remember years ago,

Radhi Devlukia: I love a champagne problem hit me with it.

Lainie Rowell: Years ago, I was getting a massage and I had a masseuse that was a very loud breather, but intentional. I now realize what this masseuse was doing. They were intentionally trying to get me to breathe more deeply and more intentionally because I'm in a massage and I'm shallow breathing and I'm like, I'm like tense in a massage.

This should be when I am really relaxing. And so ever since then, I have been so much more aware of how it's contagious and you can actually do this. Like, if you're not going to want to say like. Hey, you should do this breath, like. Do it kind of loud and exaggerated and the person around you will actually pick it up.

It's kind of amazing.

Radhi Devlukia: Definitely. I found that in my yoga classes and honestly, even my niece and my nephew, like whenever I find them, I'm like, let's just breathe together. Like just for a second, if you're getting, if we're getting overwhelmed, you're getting upset, like, let's just breathe for a second. Me, I mean, I do that with Jay as well.

I'm like, if we're in bed and he's like, Oh, I'm struggling to sleep. Or, you know, if we're, we're talking a lot, I'm like, okay, let's just, let's just take three deep breaths together. And it makes such a difference. But just, again, that's through observation, right? If you end up doing something, it filters out through to everybody else that's even around you.

So I do that when I see someone, you know, it's like when we see someone yawning or you see someone take a deep breath, you're like, Oh, okay. Yeah, that felt good.

Lainie Rowell: It really does. And one of the things that I noticed throughout the things that you share in your work is this appreciation for the unique and dynamic.

Earlier you were talking about with your diet, the seasons in your life, there might be different choices that you make for that. And then I hear that in the practices you're sharing too, right? Because you do the three deep breaths, and you were mentioning there's different breaths for different purposes.

And so. Is, is the three deep breaths, is that your, is that your go to, is that your favorite, or do you have some that you're like, these are my go to?

Radhi Devlukia: Yeah, so if I'm trying to just get out of my mind and be present again in my body, like they say, your breath connects your mind back to your body, so usually when we're in anxiety it's either we're worrying about the past or our mind has flown to the future.

And so breath can be the anchor between our mind and our body. And so, for me on a, if I'm doing it, like just before this interview, I will take three deep breaths. And what I mean by that is exactly what I said before, where you're taking the breath through and you're noticing it traveled down your throat, your chest, your stomach, and then filtering out through the rest of your body.

And that is a deep breath. And you're feeling your stomach being, you know, blowing up like a balloon as you're breathing in. And when you're exhaling, you're emptying the breath from the stale breath that's stagnant in you, the energy that's stagnant in you, you are pouring it back out. And so that is usually my go-to as I'm making my way through the day, if I'm like, got a hundred things to do and suddenly I'm like, okay, wait, lemme just take three deep breaths.

But then there's breathwork. That does different things. So one of my favorites you know, when you get that midday slump and you don't want to reach for a coffee and you don't want to reach for any kind of caffeine or sugar, there's this one breath called Kapalbhati, which translates to skull shining breath? That's essentially what it translates to because it just increases the oxygen that travels through your body. And so it's this practice of you're doing fast, short exhales with deep inhales. So should I give you an example of what it sounds like?

Lainie Rowell: I'd love that.

Radhi Devlukia: Okay, so this is how it goes.

Radhi Devlukia: And so essentially what you're doing is short, short, deep exhales and deeper inhales. And what that does is you'll suddenly find yourself going a little bit lightheaded. Like you do 20 of them and you, you will suddenly notice this tingling in your head. That's because there is so much oxygen kind of traveling through your body.

And so I use that midday to really get my energy levels back up to get me focused and attentive. So if you're struggling to pay attention and you're scrolling and you're all over the place, try that breath out. It's great. And one more I will share because there's the left side and the right side of the brain.

I'm like, constantly in a creative mode where I can just be all over the place. I'm like, let me do the bit of this and then a bit of this and then a bit of this. And so if you need to be logical when you're someone who's used to being quite free and creative or the other way around, our left and right hemispheres of our brain are connected to our left and right nostrils.

So left connects to right and right connects to the left. And so to rebalance. And to get back into like a, a balance zone, if you've been using one side more than the other, there's a breathwork called Anulam Vilam, which means the alternate nostril breathing. And essentially what you do is you are closing one nostril and breathing in from one side blocking the side you just breathed it in from and then releasing from. So breathing in from the left, releasing from the right, breathing in from the right, releasing from the left. And so you hold each side as you're doing it, each nostril. I mean, if anybody's listening and they didn't understand that, there's so many, you know, Google, you can Google it and you'll find it, but that is an amazing one to help just rebalance both sides of your brain and to become neutral with both. So I, I love that breathwork.

Lainie Rowell: That's a good one. I know, I know some breathwork and I hadn't heard of that one. So that's a very good one. Is that one in the book?

Radhi Devlukia: Yes. Yes. Both of them are in the book. And there's a few other breathworks in the book too to invoke different things in your body.

Lainie Rowell: So I hope those who are listening slash reading understand that there's so much to the book and I wish I had a more powerful word to describe how it is just about living well. And that's really it really is.

Radhi Devlukia: A little bit more Joyfull like every single thing that we do throughout the day. It's like, Every single little thing that we allow into our senses that we do every single day has the ability to either bring us joy or take us the other way.

And so it's about creating these little tiny moments throughout the day that slowly increase the joy that we're feeling. And I think it doesn't have to be, you know, we always end up thinking things have to be a big leap or a big practice and huge changes. But actually, it just takes these little things, like breath, like eating food that makes us, that doesn't just, and that was one of the reasons I wanted to call it Joyfull too, was because, like, we shouldn't have to choose, and I think we've gotten used to thinking we do.

We don't have to choose between food that makes us feel good and brings us joy. Food can be both. That can be both. And so I think we're so used to thinking if I want to be healthy and if I want my body to feel good, I have to eat food that doesn't taste good, but that's not the case.

And so I really wanted to marry the two and remind people that, you know, food can make us feel good and bring us a whole lot of joy too. And we don't have to choose between that to feel great in our body.

Lainie Rowell: Thousand percent. And that actually brings me to... we talked about the importance of family and how that's part of your story, is that this was how love was shown to you and how you're now sending it out to the universe.

For those who are working with littles, whether it's through parenting or maybe they're educators or whatever their role is, and they want to really promote this healthy, mindful lifestyle, what are some things they can maybe do to involve kids or bring kids into this?

Radhi Devlukia: Yeah, good question.

I think as soon as children and even adults get to start playing with their hands and using things and touching ingredients and different textures and experimenting with things, I think allowing a child to get into the kitchen and explore is such an important part of them creating healthy habits with food.

So even if it's a little bit, like my, my sister does this with the kids, they'll take part together in making the food and it may just be a small part where maybe they get to have their little plastic knife or whatever, the safety knife and they get to do a bit of the chopping. And then introducing new, different flavors all the time.

You know, we think that with children, we should limit them to really simple flavors, but actually spices are such a beautiful way to elevate the palate of children from a young age. So they get to experience not just the flavors of the food, but the benefits of them to the benefits of the spices and the healing benefits of them also.

And so I think actually incorporating more spices and more flavor from a young age is a great way to create that relationship with food from a young age. And then I think it should be okay where if, you know, if you think about how fast our palates change, there'll be, you know, a few years ago I really didn't like okra and now I love okra.

And so I feel like we have to give children grace also where if they said no to something last week, let them try again this week. And they may still say no, and that's fine. But we all have gone through our experiential phase of knowing what we like and don't like. And so allowing children the space to do that too.

It's okay if they say this week they don't like something, but then maybe next week or next month they might. And trying to cook it all in different ways. You can hide vegetables in a lot of ways. And you can hide a lot of things by making them just look cute or pretty or doing them in different shapes, you know taking a tomato and like cutting it into different shapes or, you know, making the salad feel a little bit more exciting with colors. I always think when you have a variety of colors on your plate, whether you're an adult or a child, it makes it so much more exciting. So when you're doing your shop, like pick colors that are different from each other. Pick colors of vegetables that are from different parts because that also allows you to have more nutrients in your diet because the colors represent different vitamins and minerals that are in the foods, but also makes it feels so much more fun.

Lainie Rowell: It does. Eat the rainbow, right?

Radhi Devlukia: Eat the rainbow, exactly. Yeah.

Lainie Rowell: You want all those different colors. I learned that from you watching one of your Instagram reels talking about you really want to try and get all these different colors so you can get all your different vitamins. So, always learning from you.

I know I have to start to wrap up because you're launching a book! And so.

Radhi Devlukia: This went so fast. It was such a great conversation, wasn't it?

Lainie Rowell: I am so excited for people to get their hands on Joyfull and you've shared so many nuggets of wisdom and it's just, I'm so happy for you to get to put this out to the world. I'm happy for everyone who gets to, to be a part of it. And just what is your biggest hope for what people take away from Joyfull?

Radhi Devlukia: Good question. My biggest hope is, yeah, my intention around this book was one for people to connect back to their own bodies, to connect back to the food that they're eating, and for them to become active participants in their health, to really know that they can have the ability to transform their health just through the choices that they are making on a daily basis.

I also want people's spice cupboards to be filled by the end of this book. This book is about creating vibrant, delicious food that is also healing for their body. And spices are such an integral part of that. And I have a whole table in my book of all the different spices, their benefits, and how to use them.

And so I hope and pray that this book allows you to explore more into spices. And thirdly, what I said before that, you don't have to pick between the food that makes you feel good and brings you joy. It can and should be both. And I hope this book serves as a reminder of that.

Lainie Rowell: I am happy to report that my spice cupboard is fuller, thanks to you.

It still has a little bit of room. I'm going to keep adding as I go through Joyfull. And it's really, I'm not going to give this away because I want people to get the book, but there were some real aha moments I had about ingredients that I had been putting in food to get a certain type of flavor that in small amounts is actually good for you, but as I was reading I reflected on Wow, these ingredients are like base in most of my recipes and the results are not good and wait a minute this is all starting to fall into place like oh I think I'm starting to like connect the dots here so that's it.

Radhi Devlukia: I know exactly what you're talking about but thank you for leaving us a little cliffhanger for people.

Lainie Rowell: Little teaser, you gotta, you gotta grab your copy of Joyfull. Which by the time people are listening to this or reading the Thrive article is out and I already pre ordered my physical copy again thank you to your team for getting me a a preview copy, but I want to hold it in my hand and hug it. That's what my friends and I do we hug our books.

Radhi Devlukia: Can't wait!

Lainie Rowell: Well, where can people purchase Joyfull and how can they stay connected with you?

Radhi Devlukia: Yeah, so the book is available at www.Joyfullbook.com, so that's J-O-Y-F-U-L-L book com. And I'm @RadhiDevlukia on Instagram and I share recipes there, wellness practices and everything that brings my life a little bit more joy.

Lainie Rowell: Well, you are in my feed and you bring me joy. I love you are so authentic, so real, and it is very much appreciated that you put out things that make, make me feel better. So, and

Radhi Devlukia: I just want to say that I honestly feel, you know, you, you mentioned that you had been practicing gratitude for a good few years now, and it's been a focus of yours.

And I honestly feel such genuine, loving energy through this laptop from you, like the way that the enthusiasm that you felt about my book made me feel more enthusiastic about my book. Like it's been so wonderful speaking to you and honestly, you've made me feel excited and more confident about my book just through speaking to you.

So thank you for that.

Lainie Rowell: That's so nice. Thank you so much.

Radhi Devlukia: I mean it.

Lainie Rowell: I talk about, I struggle with indebtedness, so I'm going to, but I'm going to take that fully because that was really lovely of you to say that. Thank you very much. Okay. We're going to, in the show notes, make sure all the links are there to connect with you.

I really want people to just reach out. And obviously I've said it a few times, but I'll say it one more time. Grab Joyfull. It's amazing. And okay. I just have to throw this out there because. The first impression is the visual, right? So, wow, just like stunning, like stunning, your food, your photographer I have so much love and respect for photographers.

It's not an easy job. Good ones make it look easy, but wow. Wow.

Radhi Devlukia: She's incredible. Alana, shout out to you. You are phenomenal. You made all my visions come true for the book and I could not be more grateful.

Lainie Rowell: So it is, it is a delight for the eyes as much as the mind, body, and soul. Again, Radhi, thank you so much for being here.

Radhi Devlukia: Yeah, it was so nice to to speak to you and hopefully we'll get to meet one day. I'd love that.

Lainie Rowell: I would love that.