Shownotes:
What if one sentence could shift the way we think about parenting, leadership, and connection?
In this episode, Dr. Aliza Pressman—developmental psychologist and author of The 5 Principles of Parenting shares the mindset that’s reshaped how so many of us set boundaries and hold space for big emotions.
We talk about the real meaning of loving limits, how to show up with connection and authority, and why being a “cat” might just be your secret weapon for parenting teens.
If you’ve ever wrestled with setting boundaries, staying grounded, or wondering whether “good enough” really is—this episode is your permission to exhale.
Thrive Global Article:
About Our Guest:
Dr. Aliza Pressman is a developmental psychologist with nearly two decades of experience working with families and the health care providers who care for them. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book The 5 Principles of Parenting: Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans, and the host of the award-winning podcast Raising Good Humans.
Aliza is the co-founding director of The Mount Sinai Parenting Center and is an assistant clinical professor at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital. She holds degrees from Dartmouth College, Teacher’s College, and Columbia University. Aliza is the mother of two teenagers.
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, emotional intelligence, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Instagram - @LainieRowell
LinkedIn - @LainieRowell
X/Twitter - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
Lainie Rowell: I am so excited. Welcome Dr. Aliza Pressman.
Aliza Pressman: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Lainie Rowell: I wanna share with you. There is a saying that you have that I don't know if I've ever quoted anyone as much as when I tell people that you say "All feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not." Could you have guessed that that was the quote I was gonna share?
Aliza Pressman: It's so simple, but that does seem to be the thing that resonates most. I think it's probably because as parents, we're all so tired, and that's a very quick way to check in.
Lainie Rowell: Well, and I also think. It works for adults too. Yeah, and that's one of the many things that's beautiful about your work is a lot of the wisdom that you share, it's not just about parents, but it's for educators, it's for leaders, it's for husbands and wives and partners.
And I think that that's a really important thing. But can you just tell us a little bit behind like what does that even mean? All feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
Aliza Pressman: I think I was trying to figure out a way to take decades of child development research and decades of research and just general to your point, like at any age, developmental psychology through the lifespan.
And what always emerges is that there has to be, you know, kind of a balance between being sensitive to the other human in your life and to yourself. So I think this is also about self. Also having appropriate limits and boundaries, and how do you do that? Everybody's struggles with this because it's like, if I'm sensitive to someone's needs, including my own, am I going to overindulge?
How will I set limits? How will I figure that out? And so I thought. A really good way to check in with yourself about all of this is to say that all feelings are welcome, so you get to be as mad, as happy, as sad, as jealous, as angry, as frustrated as whatever it is. You want I, the person responding to it, whether it's about myself.
Aliza, you're really angry right now. That's totally understandable because somebody just did something so rude. However, clocking them over the head is probably not a great idea right now. And so that's all behaviors are not. Yeah. And so whether it's to myself as I'm trying to sort of navigate the world or thinking about.
You know, a co-parent or thinking about one of my kids, it's the same answer. And whenever parents talk to me, we'll talk for hours, but then it boils down to the same thing, which is you get to feel how you get to feel. No one controls that.
Lainie Rowell: Mm-hmm.
Aliza Pressman: Except you. As much as we would love to control how other people feel, you should feel grateful.
You should feel happy, you should feel scared. You should feel whatever Those feelings are yours to own. The behaviors that I'm expecting. I still get to expect, and so if. Your feelings are welcome and the behaviors are not. I can work with that. That feels like parameters that we can all work with. And that's it.
That's my like very long explanation for a very short sentence.
Lainie Rowell: I enjoyed every second of it and I just feel like it's such a powerful statement. I literally don't think there's anyone I quote more. Then you and that statement, just because it's such a very powerful universal, and I appreciate that you put that out into the world and that I get to share it with others in a lot of different contexts, whether it's.
Working with educators and talking about the climate and culture in their classroom or in their schools. Right. Same kind of thing. And so I think it's just a really beautiful, like, it's not constrictive in the fact that you don't get your feelings, but it also is healthy boundaries. Like not all behaviors are cool.
Aliza Pressman: Absolutely. I, I was gonna call the book, all feelings are welcome. All behaviors are not. I had like a few titles. One was raising good parents, but I was like that that's, that seems like more what we're talking about. And then the other was, all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
But after saying it for all these years, it just started to get annoying. Like I was like, that's probably gonna.
Lainie Rowell: I need something new. But No, it's, it's great. Yeah. And don't worry, we're all putting it out there for you and and raising good humans for the podcast. Like we're, we're here for it all.
So I'm gonna continue to gush, but I do wanna talk a little bit about some of the, the content in your book and some of the things that, some of the wisdom that you share in your podcast. You walk us through in the book Authoritarian. Permissive and authoritative parenting. And I became aware of these terms when I was, I was a psych major, but I went on to become an educator.
And in my teacher prep program, they would talk about this and they would talk about like, what are you gonna be in your classroom? Are you gonna be an authoritarian? Are you gonna be permissive? Are you gonna be authoritative? And so what is it about that sensitive with boundaries, that sweet spot?
Aliza Pressman: So first of all, I'm really glad you said that because I think that parenting has become this, like what's your approach or like all these things that sort of the, the new world of like mindful parenting. Gentle parenting because I said so parenting all the different... helicopter parenting. I don't know. Labels. Labels, nobody's like, my approach is helicopter. But I do think everyone's like looking to label an approach or make it a new thing. But ultimately this is decades old research and it keeps like now getting replicated and now we're seeing like neuroscience back it up that this authoritative approach of kind of.
Sounds a little bit basic, but all feelings are welcome, sensitive caregiving, including in the classroom. Do you have a connection with your student? Do you have a connection with your child? Do you have a connection with any human in your life? And the other side of it of. The loving limits, the all behaviors are not, so those limits, the boundary, the rules control to a certain extent expectation that when you balance those out, that is authoritative parenting.
That is where you are able to steer the ship that makes people feel safe because you are seeing them, but you're also in charge. Those two things need to be true together. When you get into authoritarian is when, whoops. Nobody can see me, but I'm making a scale here. And when you get into authoritarian is when the control, the expectations, the rules are sort of the prevailing feature of your powerful way, and I totally get that, especially if that's how you, you were raised or that's what feels like it works best. Sometimes that can be fear-based. Sometimes in the absence of that sensitivity, it's controlling and it is probably gonna lead to outcomes you're not looking for like covert behaviors and a lack of connection and risk taking behaviors that are not something you can even help with 'cause you're not gonna be the safe harbor and nobody's calling you to say, I messed up. I'm in trouble. And so I think authoritarian can be dangerous even though it's entirely reasonable that it comes from a place of like, I need to be in control.
And then the flip side is like all that loving sensitivity and best friendship. But it's, there's no authority whatsoever. There's no sense of somebody keeping me safe 'cause they're in charge and they're kind of, they've been around and they're stable and their rules are not moving with my moods. And I think that that permissiveness can feel really good because we are like.
Every time our children feel a feeling, we are sensitively responding to it and moving the goalpost. But that ends up. And it again, it's so well-meaning. It's so loving. Yes. But it can end up leading to chaos. It can end up leading to really high rates of anxiety, depression, internalizing disorders, high rates of substance misuse in adolescents.
Like if you're looking at a classroom and you're thinking this teacher is best friends with the kids. This is amazing. But they struggle because as a parent, as a teacher, as a leader. They don't want to displease the other person you're going to when you have limits. You're going, even if those limits are so important and appropriate and there for safety.
And so I think that that is a great way to just remember this research has been around for a long time. We repackage it and , we remarket it all the time. And I think now it's, I think it's more autonomy supportive parenting is, is the research that we're using.
But then in the zeitgeist and the culture, I think it's everything from conscious parenting to mindful parenting or whatever. Whatever it is, it's all the same. We really need those loving limits and sensitive caregiving.
Lainie Rowell: I think we'd love to rename things because it makes it fresh. Right. But I really hear you in that both extremes feel unsafe to kids.
Yeah. Whether it's that they're too controlling or not guiding enough, they both feel, to some extent, out of control. Yes. Because it's so controlling, it feels out of control, if that makes any sense. And then the other is there's just no boundaries. Doesn't anyone care what I do? I'm just gonna keep testing the limits.
Right. And whatever we wanna call it. But I do like how you talk about being both sensitive and having boundaries and that being the sweet spot. And I see that in so many ways. Not that it's necessarily easy, but that is what we strive for.
Aliza Pressman: I think that to your point, like it's not easy, but it's also the bar is pretty low in that we just have to do it more often than not, so that it becomes the sort of main approach that we have.
And the rest of the time we can blow it. We can be too permissive. We can be a little controlling and authoritarian. You know, we're all gonna have those moments, those days, those experiences where we're just like, but. If the majority of the time you're able to balance the limits and the love, you're good.
And I think that that matters because it takes the pressure off. Like in surgery, you're looking for perfect. For sure. I don't want a brain surgeon to be like, eh. I'm getting right more often than not, but in parenting it's so important. And same with any kind of role where we are guiding, and that's because we also need to make sure that we grow adults that think that they're allowed to have floppy days.
Lainie Rowell: I appreciate that grace because. I think a lot of us as parents struggle with trying to achieve perfection, which is not attainable, and that's one of the many things I love about your work is that you give us that grace and you say, look, if you can do it, more often than not, you're doing amazing.
Because I think we tend to beat ourselves up plenty as long as we are doing our best and we're getting it more often than not, we're in great shape and we're gonna raise these good humans. So I love one of, well, I just, this'll just be a list of all the things you say that I love, but
Aliza Pressman: I mean, you're so kind.
Lainie Rowell: Well, I really do love, and I haven't said the book's title often enough, so the Five Principles of Parenting, your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans, raising Good Humans, that really strikes a chord with I think, a lot of us, and one of the things you say is that it starts with our own nervous system.
I mean that's like really powerful and you have the five Rs. Could you maybe unpack those a little bit?
Aliza Pressman: Sure. So, and I will say this is all rooted in the science of the, in developmental science. And so it's not mine, it's just my delivery approach maybe. So these five Rs none of them are my big ideas.
I just kind of put them together because I wanted so much to be able to say, what do we know? Which we don't know that much. As you know, the minutiae of the everyday interactions that we have, they don't matter that much. We cling to them so desperately. But in the big picture, I wanted to be able to say what actually matters that's in our control.
And so the five Rs are relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair. And those five Rs are the principles that we control to the extent that we control ourselves and that have the biggest impact on our kids. Obviously, we cannot control their biology other than to deliver DNA if we're talking about birth children, but beyond that, there's no other contribution there that we can control.
We can't control how other people interact with our kids. So I really wanted to say, what part of the science can we do something about? And I'm pretty in love with the fact that these five R actually can move the needle on resilience building because that is heartening to me.
Lainie Rowell: Absolutely. There's things that we do to create the conditions, but we still don't necessarily have control over what happens on the playground or what someone says when we're not watching or how our baby is treated in the real world, and it's like really hard.
And so this connection to resilience is really, really helpful for us to raise good and strong humans. We want them to be able to cope with whatever life's gonna throw them.
Aliza Pressman: Exactly. Exactly. So just so they're not abstract relationship is really just this simple. It sounds so simple, but it's just like, are we attuned with the humans in our life that we love so much, we paying attention? Are we distracted by thinking about what they'll become?
You know, what they'll achieve? How they reflect on us, how other people are perceiving us. Like all of the things that take us away from, are we seeing each other right now?
Are we connecting with each other right now? Did I notice that one child was a little bit briskly when I said something. Whereas another child who's more dandelion like, might just be like, I don't even notice. You can't know that about your kids unless you are really paying attention. And if we're sort of inundated with all of our self-doubt and all of our hopes and dreams for them, we are not actually in relationship.
So I think it's more simple than it seems, but if you didn't grow up with a close relationship with a parent or someone in your life that taught that you taught that you can be loved and seen, even in the context of like not getting what you want all the time and having limits and stuff. I think it can be hard, how do I connect, how do I play with my kid?
What does it look like to connect? And I, I think that exploring that can be really useful.
And it's also when I look at all the interviews that I do for the podcast and all the books that I read, ultimately. Relationship is one of the major answers to every question. And so it's like all the five R is, in fact, each one of them feel like they feel a little too simple to be true, but relationship is the most powerful environmental influence on our kids.
You know, we think about like pesticides or any external environmental issue or influence. But relationship is the most powerful one. And the relationship with a primary caregiver is the single most powerful environmental influence on our kids. And that is just so cool. And I also just wanna say that it's still a small influence and I don't want it to be translated into, oh my God, it's all on me.
It's more like. Even in the context of the stuff that we wish were not so we have the power through our relationship to support kids going through such a range of experiences.
Lainie Rowell: Truly a range of experiences. And I just have to touch on how they reflect on us, man. I think if there's one thing we could remove from how we parent that being a factor might clear up a lot of challenges because they are these little reflections of us in the world and we want the best for them. And then there's, I'll be honest, there's a part of me that's like, oh, that does not make me look good. Don't do that. That's gonna make me look terrible.
Aliza Pressman: Yeah. I mean, my kids, the first time they were aware of kind of my job. It, it's funny in retrospect, but like it was not at the time, which was, I used to have mom groups at home and I had an office at home and so my kids were coming home. It was on a different floor, so the entrance was different, but the entrance to the building was the same. My kids came home, I guess, at the same time as some of the moms in my group were arriving.
So when I saw my kids afterwards they said, oh, we accidentally bumped into some of the moms in your group, but don't worry. We were so polite because we don't want you to lose your job. And I was like, ah. That is, I mean, first of all, thank you for being polite, but just to be a person, not so that my job, my job is on the line.
But also I was thinking, oh my God, please know that your behavior, if anything it's my work to make sure that I don't treat you as if your behavior is a reflection of my capacity to do my job with other people. Like it just might mean that I'm not really good at putting into practice what I preach.
It was really important to me to pay attention to that after this happened. And there were a couple of other moments, like I remember my best friend and I had all of our kids together. They were all little, there were five kids to together kind of playing outside. And one of my kids must have done something that bothered me.
I have no recollection exactly of what, but here's what I remember. I remember that my friend said to me, oh I would never have guessed that's what you're supposed to do in those kinds of situations. And she didn't say that in a way that was like,
Lainie Rowell: it wasn't meant to be a slight, yeah,
Aliza Pressman: it was not meant to be a slight, she genuinely was like, who knew?
And I said to her, oh no, you should not do that. I was like, a hundred percent what I did is not what I would recommend. I just lost it. And so these little moments happen and you know, you pay attention to, and I just learned it earlier, wow, this isn't about raising my kids. This is about making sure people think I'm a good mom and that is not okay.
And, and especially for me, I knew that that was gonna be an issue, and so I didn't want to fall into that trap of like, what will people think? And am I gonna change my parenting in this moment to serve how people will view me versus how my children will feel?
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. It's a struggle.
I have not mastered it yet. It is something I'm aware of and you know, I'm an educator. My kids have known what I do for a living, and so, you know, I'd like them to be just the beacon of the best kids ever, but I'm not gonna put that on them. I hope they don't feel that.
Another thing to do with relationships that really resonated with me, and this'll maybe partly be because of where I am in the cycle of parenthood, which is, I have a tween and a teen, so I have a 14-year-old girl. You guys can't see her, but Aliza just gave me the best look because she knows she knows what I'm in.
And so I have a 14-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy. And I love how you talk about when to be a dog versus a cat.
Aliza Pressman: Okay, this is so in life. I generally use dog and cat metaphors for everything because I am such a dog as just a person who, like, I wag my tail.
Basically. I put it all out there. I'm very enthusiastic and it's not cool. I have jokes with plenty of my friends and my husband about, you know. My dog likes self, and I think some people are more cats, they're just a little more aloof. They're harder to get. You have to kind of work a little harder.
I am always in awe of those kinds of personalities because I just could never, I can't hold back for five seconds. Like if I'm thinking something nice about someone, I'm probably gonna say it immediately. There's no playing it cool. With teenagers you have to kind of play it cool and be a cat and let them come to you and be available.
So you're like curled up at the end of the sofa, but you're not like wagging your tail and licking them and jumping all over them when they walk in the door. And I think as toddlers and young children, they need that enthusiasm and that desperation, but it's hard for me to dress up as a cat and play it cool. And we obviously have a lot of jokes about this in my family. I think it's really useful if you think about dogs and cats. If you don't, it's not Lisa Dior says be a house plant. And that totally resonates as well. But I do think that if you can transition as you see your adolescent wanting to individuate more, but kind of wanting you around, but not really bothering them.
It's a lot easier to get that sense that they're safe to come to you, but you're not like needy and desperate. And again, if you ask my kids, they'd be like, she's literally never a cat. But what they don't realize is the version of me they get is me desperately trying to be a cat. Like I would be even more ridiculous if I didn't have, in my mind, I'm a cat.
I'm a cat, I'm a cat.
Lainie Rowell: That is so relatable to me because I would say the exact same thing. If someone asked my kids, is your mom cool? Is she chill? Is she laid back? They'd be like, no.
You know, I travel for work and when my kids was really young it would really be so, so, so hard on me. And I had a really wise friend and she's like, I know it's hard on you now. You're gonna think they don't need you around later. It's gonna feel easier from the perspective of like, mom, that's cool head off I'll see you in a few days. But it's actually when they need you around the most, you just have to be there like in the background.
Yeah.
Aliza Pressman: Like, be chill. So it, it is interesting because at the same time as you're trying not to be a a dog. You do. It's true. Like Saturday night isn't our night out anymore. It's the night that we probably need to be around to do a pickup from a party or smell breath when people get home and hug them and give them a snack.
You know, look into their eyes, let them know like there's somebody who's loving you and waiting up for you, but like also happy to be doing their own thing at home. I'm not saying never go out on a Saturday night, but just keep in mind that that period during which we feel like a little bit like cat behavior, we still need to be around.
And if anything, we probably need to be around a little bit more. There's this whole window of elementary school where if you wanna go out on a Friday and Saturday night, your kids are not losing like that face that's looking them in the eye when they get home.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. And,
Aliza Pressman: and so it's just that, you know, different ages, different, we have different priorities and, and I think for teenagers it's a funny thing to be around, but just not be annoying.
Lainie Rowell: The amount of energy I'm exerting to not be annoying is exhausting, but it's fine. It's fine. This is the phase.
Aliza Pressman: No, I, I'm with you. This is my Achilles heel. That's why I talk about it so much.
Lainie Rowell: And I wanna be super clear to those listening. Who are parents or teachers of different ages.
One of the things that I want to commend you on with the book, I think this is hard to do, but you thread this needle so well, is that you talk about the universal and then you give examples of, well, this is what it would look like for a toddler and this is what it would look like for upper elementary and this is what it would look like for teen.
So I do wanna make sure, just because I am completely selfishly asking you things that have to do with my parenting situation like, I just wanna make super clear to the listeners that you cover it all in your beautiful book. And I'm gonna keep going though on one that I think is probably more relevant with the tween and the teen years, but talking about the difference between toxic stress and positive stress. It's relating to all ages, but maybe I just tend to see it more as we're getting into the older stages.
Aliza Pressman: And I think all of these things truly I did, I wanted to have a book that people could just feel like they could go back to at different ages and I wanted one fluent theme for everyone. Just 'cause there's so much I. By the way, there's so many beautiful books that are more specific that are about one particular topic, but I just sort of wanted this sort of, if you can't look at anything else, will this cover it from birth through adolescence?
And I think it gets easier as you practice with different ages and with toxic versus positive stressors essentially in the research and I think this is really important to talk about also because we hear stress for our kids and we panic. We don't want our kids to experience stress. In fact, one of my teenagers the other day said.
No, that causes a cortisol spike and cortisol spikes are bad for your brain. And I said to her, listen, wherever you're getting this information
Lainie Rowell: that sounds like a TikTok or an Instagram,
Aliza Pressman: it said, that sounds like an like a social media science. And of course my children looked at me and they were like, you do the same thing you do social media reels about this stuff.
And I'm like that is not my point.
Lainie Rowell: There's lot of credentials, lot of education and certifications.
Aliza Pressman: It's not bad to experience stress, it's the chronic stress. So like a spike in your cortisol because you're nervous for taking a test, that's probably gonna help you a little bit. If you stayed in that state and it was chronic and it wasn't coming back down, then it's a problem. And so toxic stressors are the kind of stressors where you have.
Unrelenting, toxic, terrible, not going anywhere, chronic stress, and that happens with exposure to violence. It happens with abuse and neglect. Of course it happens experiencing basically all of our worst nightmares. But what I think is so beautiful about this particular research is that essentially whatever you go through in, because this research started in World War ii, so even war torn childhood can be moved from the category of toxic stress exposure to tolerable stress just by having one adult caregiver with whom you feel that safe, secure relationship. So that to me is a beautiful thing about it.
We'd never want toxic stress because inherent in the definition is that you don't have that support system to help sit with you. You can't stop it. These are terrible stressors that happen out of our control. But unless it's direct from the parent, in which case you need someone else who's gonna be in that role.
And then on the other side of it are positive stressors and positive stressors are necessary for resilience. Like you don't need toxic stress to experience resilience. Toxic stress does not lead to resilience. In fact, it leads to higher rates of mental illness, high rates of heart disease, diabetes, like stroke, every you, you name it.
There are both physiological and mental health implications for toxic stressors throughout the lifespan. But the tolerable stressors actually have capacity to build resilience. Mm. And that's the only distinction is that you have that caregiver that has that loving support, the positive stressors you don't need to do anything about.
They're gonna come, you just don't wanna interrupt them. Positive stressors are like. You didn't remember to bring your homework, you forgot your baseball uniform, you didn't get invited to a birthday party. Your parents are having another baby. You moved you, you switch schools. Actually switching schools and moving is probably more tolerable most of the time.
But that just means you need a loving support system for them. Positive stressors, it'd be nice if you could be loving and supportive and say I hate that feeling when you forget to bring in your uniform and then you can't play the game.
But what you're not doing is saying, I don't want you to experience that.
I'll get there in time. Your coach will never know. Because then we're fixing the very thing that is like the baby muscle building that we need to be doing so that our kids can grow up and remember that feeling is something they can get through. If you didn't experience positive stressors and positive doesn't mean good things, it means they're helpful to your life.
If you didn't experience those, how are you supposed to know you can survive those?
Lainie Rowell: I'm gonna disclose something. I love to rescue. Like, rescuing makes me feel really good.
But yeah. Okay. So I'm, so, I'm human. But what I care about more than rescuing is how do I cultivate resilience and agency and autonomy in my kids because I do want them to be successful. So my kids actually, this is probably one thing. I'm just gonna get myself, pat on the back.
My kids like make their own breakfast. I don't know if it's just out of laziness and not being a morning person, but yeah.
Aliza Pressman: By the way, who cares why it's so awesome that they do? I feel the same way. Like a lot of the things that my kids do on their own is simply because of laziness on my part. But I'll take it as a win.
Lainie Rowell: I'm gonna take it as a win. I'm here for it. So I really appreciate that we don't wanna rescue and remove these opportunities for our kids to navigate stress, because that is what builds resilience. We have to give them those opportunities. We cannot take those opportunities away from them.
And so thank you for helping me with that. I very much appreciate that.
Okay, I just wanna nerd out on you talk about it in the book and I've heard you talk about it other places, theory of mind.
Can we just geek out on this because I've heard you say you're fascinated by this and I too am fascinated by theory of mind. So for those who might not have it, top of mind, what is theory of mind? Why is this important?
Aliza Pressman: So theory of mind is essentially this cognitive capacity to understand that different people have different mental states.
So if you can understand the mental states of others, or at least know that they have a different mental state than you might, you're so close to being empathetic. You're so close to being able to move through the world without making assumptions that will make you have a difficult time connecting with people.
Because if we mind read all the time with the assumption that the other person would think and feel exactly as we do, then there is very little room for open curiosity and connection. So what does it look like in the research? I think this is super cool. So experimenters looked at three year olds and four year olds in a lab. And they asked them what was inside a very familiar object. The familiar object was a box of Crayola crayons. So they'd ask the three year olds what's in the box.
The three year olds would say crayons, typically. Typically. And the four-year-olds would say crayons. 'cause that's what they're looking at. Then they would say, I'm gonna show you a little secret here, is that there are paperclips in this box. So the three-year-olds had exposure to that three and under, and the four and Up had exposure to that.
So then they would have an experimenter come in the room and they would say, what do you think this person, let's call this person Lainey. What do you think Lainey thinks is inside this Crayola box? And so the two, three year olds would say paperclips because they would assume if they know there are paperclips in the Crayola box, then everybody must know that there are paperclips in there. And what a massive leap over the age of four when the kids were able to say, well, they're probably gonna think they're crayons in this box.
I know there are paperclips. To me that cognitive leap is breathtaking. Like I know it's very nerdy for us to be excited about this, but what it means is that I can also say, you know, I'm assuming a whole lot of things if it were just me, but I know that other people might not be coming from that same perspective.
So let me think about what their perspective might be. And I think that if we can really work on that, we can really help I mean, humanity.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
Aliza Pressman: Because we are very much having a problem with this particular skillset right now.
Lainie Rowell: We are. I appreciate you pointing out. We know that from the science developmentally, it's around four, maybe five, right?
Somewhere in there. I came to know about theory of mind back in the day when I was diving deep into gratitude because how can you understand that someone has done something for you without theory of mind, without understanding that they don't see the world exactly like you see it, that they don't have the exact same thoughts in their head.
Like that doesn't make any sense otherwise. But I also think exactly what you said for adults too is to remember that we don't know what other people are thinking and they're not thinking the same thing as us. And we can think we know lots of things, but we'll never Yeah. Completely what someone else is going through.
Aliza Pressman: Right? And so how do we make sure that you don't just like have the cognitive skill, but you exercise it constantly so that it grows into a skill that allows you to be the kind of person that says, well, I might feel this way.
Lainie Rowell: Mm-hmm.
Aliza Pressman: You know, let me think about what this other person's perspective might be.
Lainie Rowell: So important with the humility of, I can't possibly know, but I know that it could be different.
Aliza Pressman: Yeah.
Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I love that. Okay. I just had to nerd out on that because when I read that in your book, I'm like, I get to talk to Aliza Pressman about theory of mind, like I'm such a nerd. I know. I'm here for it though.
So Aliza, if there was something you haven't had a chance to share yet, or you can't share enough, like you're gonna put it on a billboard or shout it from a rooftop, what do you want people to know?
Aliza Pressman: I mean. If I'm gonna shout it from a rooftop, it would probably still be all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
But I also want parents to think about how uniquely suited they are to be raising the kids that they have and how all the research in the world is only to give insight into how that individual might experience raising those particular kids. And the rest is like, know your own values and what feels right for you, and use the research to help inform what you wanna do with that.
But my values or anybody else's are very specifically not yours. They might be aligned, like we might, we probably have a lot of alignment, but I think it's really important to recognize that how other people want to experience, like what to prioritize. Is fully on them. And I think that way you're not overwhelmed.
Pick three or four things that really matter to you and then align the science and figure out, okay, given the science and my values, how am I raising these kids and everything else I'm gonna say that's not on my worry plate because you can't take on everything, so don't try.
It's so overwhelming and it can make you resent parenting and parenting experts and parenting influencers and all that noise. Just pick what's important to you. Focus on that and let like know that the rest can kind of. Like work itself out.
Lainie Rowell: I so appreciate that you give us the tools, the strategies, the mindset to empower us, and then you also offer us such grace.
And one of the things that I heard throughout our conversation is that we as parents, and I put educators in this group, counselors, caregivers, it's a big group of us that work with kids. We are so important, but not every moment of what we do is so important. And if we can overall do the good work, more often than not, then we're gonna raise those good humans.
Aliza Pressman: Exactly.
Lainie Rowell: Okay, good. Right, so now I wanna make sure that people know to go to their favorite bookseller and get the Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. I want to make sure people, if they're not already listening to Raising Good Humans Podcasts, they should absolutely do that.
And then, Aliza, what else do you want people to know about how they can connect with you? Like the socials? I mean, I follow you on Instagram.
Aliza Pressman: I do have the Instagram @RaisingGoodHumansPodcast. And I have a Substack that just is a free weekly newsletter that kind of summarizes the episode of the week.
And maybe I pull out like one thing from it that I just thought we should really dive into. And the Substack does have a community, like there is a subscription part of that where we meet once a month. I think that's it.
Lainie Rowell: It's amazing. I am also a subscriber and I do really appreciate that. Your solo episodes are magic and then you have these tremendous guests on.
And then I do appreciate that you do give us these really important tips in the email and then we get to also go listen to the episodes. So you're like giving it to us in all the ways. Making it so.
Aliza Pressman: I wanna make it accessible and I just want people to like, some people like to listen, some people like to read.
Some people like to just look at an Instagram post, take it however, it's helpful.
Lainie Rowell: I'm taking all of it, and I so appreciate all the brilliance that you put out there. And if people are not already connected to you, they need to be. And. I just wanna keep saying your name 'cause I'm so excited that I get to be here with you.
Aliza Pressman: I just thought it was because you know how to say Aliza,
Lainie Rowell: I would be so devastated if I said it wrong.
But Aliza, thank you so much for being here and thank you all for listening.
Aliza Pressman: Thank you for having me.