Shownotes:
What if our view of people is darker than reality?
Dr. Jamil Zaki, Stanford psychologist and author of Hope for Cynics, shares why many of us mistake cynicism for wisdom and what it’s really costing us.
Discover how hopeful skepticism, positive gossip, and small shifts in perspective can help us see more good, build more trust, and live with greater connection.
Thrive Global Article:
About Our Guest:
Jamil Zaki is a full professor of psychology at Stanford University and director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. He and his colleagues study social connection, what that connection does for us, and how people can learn to connect more effectively. Jamil has published over 100 peer-reviewed articles and received more than two dozen awards from scientific associations and universities.
In addition to his scientific work, Jamil has written about the psychology of connection for outlets including The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and Harvard Business Review. His first book, The War for Kindness, was described by NPR as a “wide-ranging, practical guide to making the world better.” His second book, Hope for Cynics, was praised by Adam Grant as “A ray of light for dark times.”
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, emotional intelligence, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
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LinkedIn - @LainieRowell
X/Twitter - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
[00:01:55] Lainie Rowell: Jamil, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to jump in.
[00:01:58] Jamil Zaki: It's my pleasure.
[00:01:59] Lainie Rowell: I have to give a little bit of a background because I really took advantage of you keynoting an event where Dacher Keltner happened to be sitting right next to me, and I, I really kind of put him on the spot and I'm like, Dacher, tell Jamil I am not crazy and that he should chat with me.
And, Dacher. I don't know if he was winking to you, like I don't know, but but somehow I seem to have leveraged that situation. Is that fair to say?
[00:02:25] Jamil Zaki: Any friend of Dacher is a friend of mine, and and no, I mean, I'm, I'm just thrilled to be talking with you no matter what the source.
[00:02:32] Lainie Rowell: Okay.
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I'm super excited to talk about your book, Hope for Cynics. And I would love to know what inspired you to write this. There's so many things you could have written about and when you invest the time to write a book, you care deeply about this topic, I assume.
And so what was the like, I gotta write about this.
[00:02:52] Jamil Zaki: I wrote Hope for Cynics because I needed it personally. So Lainie, as you know, I've been studying the science of human connection for 20 years. Things like empathy and kindness and togetherness. And a lot of people imagine that if you study how great people are, you must go around just constantly blist out about human goodness.
And I regret to inform you that's not always the case. I've known, for instance, happiness researchers who aren't that happy and meditation researchers who aren't that peaceful. And I myself lived with a secret this whole time. I would talk about, study, write about human goodness, but I myself was pretty cynical.
Mm-hmm. I tended to have a hard time trusting people, and I found it quite easy to see the worst side of them. And I thought, well gosh, if I am suffering from cynicism, given what I do for a living, how prevalent is this in the rest of us? Yeah. And I quickly discovered what a massive problem our loss of faith in each other is, and further found that there is a lot of solutions to better seeing the good in each other.
And I thought that those solutions would be important to bring to as many people as I could.
[00:04:08] Lainie Rowell: And in your book, you are so transparent, so vulnerable in sharing that I should have known better, but I was still really suffering with cynicism. And then you go on to share how this is really a universal challenge that a lot of us are facing.
What are some of the, the misunderstandings or the myths about cynicism? Like what are we getting wrong here?
[00:04:29] Jamil Zaki: Great question, and maybe we should define it first, right, please. So cynicism is basically a theory about people. It's a theory that in general people are selfish, greedy, and dishonest.
Now, that's not to say that a cynic thinks people will always act in selfish ways. Rather it's about what's on the inside. So they might say, yeah, you donated to charity, but you wanted a tax break. Or, yeah, you helped a stranger, but you want to look good in front of your friends. Right? It's not a theory about what people do, but rather about who they are.
And then you asked about the myths of cynicism. It turns out that there are three ways that I think our culture has glamorized cynicism in ways that are wrong, that clash with the data and actually hurt us. Mm. The first is this idea that cynicism is smart. So researchers have asked people, you know, who do you think would do better at a series of tasks?
Somebody who's really cynical or somebody who's open and trusting. And generally speaking, people think that cynics will do better on cognitive tasks, that they're smarter and they think that they'll also do better at social tasks like lie detection, that they're socially more intelligent. And we call this the cynical genius illusion because it's an illusion.
It turns out that in fact, cynics do less well on cognitive tests, and they're worse at spotting who's lying and who's telling the truth. So really, we think of cynicism as a form of wisdom, but it's really quite the opposite.
[00:06:00] Lainie Rowell: As you're talking, I'm making this connection to, this is something I'm working on, but I tend to think if I worry about something, then maybe it won't happen. Like I can catastrophize and is it kind of along those same lines as like, we have this illusion that if we just think the worst, it's actually not gonna be the worst. I don't know if that makes any sense.
[00:06:22] Jamil Zaki: That makes a lot of sense.
And, and in fact, I, I talk with my kids about this all the time. I would say that I'm a pretty neurotic person, and for a long time I tried to change that and now I've sort of tried to accept it, and I think a lot of the time I'm a planner because I'm so worried about what could go wrong. Yeah.
I think that there's a difference though between that sort of nervous planning, which is maybe helpful and maybe not so helpful depending on what outcome you're looking at and cynicism. Yeah. Right. So when you're worried that something could happen, you're acknowledging that you don't know what the future holds.
Mm. And that things could change that. That you could make a difference.
If you're a cynic, you don't think there's anything that you can do to change people for the better. You think that it's a done deal thing, people are bad and things will get worse. And unlike that sort of nervous planning, cynicism actually makes us less likely to act.
For instance, cynics are less likely to vote to take part in in protests or social movements. They're less likely to work on their relationships because they find all of that work pointless. And that to me leads to what we could call self-fulfilling prophecies. If you're nervous about the future and you do something, you can make things better.
But if you're sure that things are terrible and you don't do anything, you almost assure that the bad things you're fearing actually come to pass.
[00:07:44] Lainie Rowell: I appreciate that nuance. It's not a matter of uncertainty, it's, you are certain. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, the, the worst is the worst and you know, it, there is no question about it.
So it sounds like there's not really any upside of cynicism. Is that fair to say?
[00:08:00] Jamil Zaki: I mean, we haven't even talked about 10% of the downsides. I mean it,
[00:08:06] Lainie Rowell: well, please tell us more about the downsides, but is it, is, is it fair to say, like, are there any upsides.
[00:08:11] Jamil Zaki: Okay. So I think that let me, let's talk about the downsides and then I wanna get to this question because a lot of people ask me this. Let's first make it make very clear that there are many downsides.
So cynicism, I mean, if you think that people are pretty rotten overall, it makes it deeply difficult for you to trust them and to connect with them. Yeah. And trust and connection are really at the heart of what allows human beings to thrive as individuals, in our communities and as a society, and so you see the fallout of cynicism at all of those levels.
Cynical individuals tend to be more depressed and stressed. They tend to have more heart disease, cellular inflammation. Cynics die younger than non cynics. Cynical communities tend to be less civically engaged, more divided, and more economically stagnant. I mean, really, there are few things that cynicism doesn't appear to touch in a harmful way because there are few things that trust doesn't touch in a positive way. Now, to your question though, is there any upside? I think it depends on how you define cynicism. Mm-hmm. A lot of people tell me, I think there's an upside to cynicism because it makes me question people. Well, according to the science that's not cynicism.
Yeah, that's skepticism, right? So as we've been talking about, as you rightly said, Lainie cynicism is a certainty. It's a sense of dark confidence that you know what is inside people. Skepticism is the sense that you don't know
what's inside people and that you want proof. So I think that skepticism, the desire for evidence before you believe a claim is incredibly useful.
But I don't think that's the same as cynicism at all.
[00:09:57] Lainie Rowell: I so appreciate you going into this is what we mean by cynicism, because yes, I could see how people would have their own definition of cynicism and then derive positives from it. But the scientific definition, no. And then I really appreciate what I heard as you were listing off all of the downside of cynicism is that it's not only emotionally damaging, it's physically damaging. And I think this is something that we've really learned over the recent decades is how much there's that connection between how we feel and how our bodies react to it.
Is that fair to say?
[00:10:33] Jamil Zaki: It's totally fair to say, and I would go further. Our bodies are social. Mm-hmm. I think that one of the myths that we have is that, yeah, sure we can interact with each other, but you know, our physical selves are totally separate, but that's not true. I mean, every time we talk with one another, every time we hug somebody, but also when we type a supportive message to them from across the country we are literally changing their brain. We're changing the hormones that are released by their body. We're changing the state of their heart and their nervous system. And so really those social connections are nourishment, not just for our minds, not just for our emotions, but for our bodies. And when you're cut off from that nourishment, it makes perfect sense that your body should also become less healthy.
[00:11:27] Lainie Rowell: I like that we're defining things. Let's get clear on hope and optimism, and we haven't even really talked about optimism yet, but I'm just kind of jumping there because that's one of the words that I think about when we're talking about, would we say optimism is the opposite of cynicism?
[00:11:46] Jamil Zaki: Yeah, I wouldn't, but a lot of people think that,
[00:11:48] Lainie Rowell: yeah, that's why help us out here, help us fix our vocabulary.
[00:11:52] Jamil Zaki: This is great. And I, I mean, part of my mission with this work is just to get people using more precise language so they can understand themselves and each other better, and work on the parts of themselves that they want to work on.
And in order for us to do that, we need a clear vocabulary, right? A lot of people think that the only alternative to being cynical and hopeless is to be naive and optimistic. Yeah. To assume that everything is gonna be great and everybody is great and that is ridiculous. And it feels more ridiculous now than ever for many people, right?
I get told all the time. How dare you be optimistic when the world and the nation and our lives are so chaotic. To which I would say I'm not optimistic at all. Optimism, just like cynicism, is an assumption. Mm-hmm. It's a, a confident prediction about the future and about people.
Right. A, a cynic is confident, way too confident, I would say, in their inferences about other people. An optimist is way too confident that the future is going to go well. And because they know the future is going to go well, they don't have to do anything about it. Mm-hmm. Right. So research finds that optimistic people are happier.
But they're also more passive and more complacent. Hope is different, right? It's the idea that things could turn out better than they are, but that we have no idea. And in that uncertainty, our actions matter. So hopeful people are also happier. They're about as happy as optimistic people, but they're much more goal oriented.
Mm. As opposed to just contemplating the bright future that is on its way, they reach for it through their actions, and because of that, are more likely to actually make it come about. You know, we talked about the negative self-fulfilling prophecies of cynicism. You fear the worst in people, so you treat them badly and you bring out there worse.
Well, hope is the opposite, right? If you, if you strive for a better future, you make it just a little bit more likely to arrive.
[00:13:59] Lainie Rowell: Now, let me see if I'm getting this right. So it seems like what optimists and cynics have in common is a high level of certainty that they know how things are gonna go just in different directions, right?
So that optimist is certain it's gonna work out. Or at least fairly certain. And the cynic is fairly certain it's not gonna work out. Am I good so far?
[00:14:22] Jamil Zaki: That's right, yes.
[00:14:24] Lainie Rowell: And then what hope does is it leaves room for the unknown, but in a way that promotes agency, that we're goal directed, we're not gonna sit by and let things happen.
We're going to be active in this process.
[00:14:37] Jamil Zaki: That's beautifully put. And from my perspective. Optimism and cynicism share complacency. Mm-hmm. You can think of the naive optimist as having light complacency, they're whistling in their passivity. And you can think of the cynic as having a dark complacency grumbling through their passive lives.
And, and really neither of those is very healthy, in my opinion, but they have way more in common than they think. Right? The optimist in the cynic probably feel like they're opposites to each other, but in fact, I think that they're they're quite similar, more similar than either would probably want to admit.
And really, as you said, it's agency that matters in not just wishing for things to turn out better, but trying to actually be part of a positive change in the world and in our lives.
[00:15:27] Lainie Rowell: Okay. I'm sorry. I'm really nerding out on the vocabulary 'cause I really try for that emotional granularity where I can name things more accurately.
And so vocabulary is kind of a nerd thing of mine. And so I think the one word we haven't maybe talked about yet is pessimism 'cause we've got optimism in the mix. How, where does pessimism and cynicism find each other? Or maybe not?
[00:15:49] Jamil Zaki: I think they're related. So optimism is this complacent confidence that the future will turn out well, pessimism is
complacent confidence that the future will turn out poorly and cynicism is confidence that people are not very good. Yeah, generally speaking, if you think people are not very good, you probably don't expect much of the future because many of the things that we hope for in the future have to do with what people decide to do next, right?
If you think that people are trustworthy and want something better, then it's more likely to come about.
[00:16:23] Lainie Rowell: This is the last vocab one I have in my notes. If we have more down the road, I'm here for it. But the, the other one is when I got to see you speak, you talked about hopeful skepticism.
Okay. So you're taking two of these words and putting 'em together and what do we get when we do that, when we are hopeful skeptics.
[00:16:41] Jamil Zaki: That's a great question. And you know, here I think it's important to bring in another piece of the science. So it turns out that cynicism, as we've talked about, has all of these negative consequences.
It makes us feel bad, makes us act badly, breaks down our bodies. Mm-hmm. But it's also just wrong. It turns out that there's tons of evidence that we are negatively biased in what we see about each other, right? So people across lots and lots of studies around the world underestimate how kind other people are, how friendly they are, how open-minded they are, and how trustworthy they are.
So to me, hopeful skepticism means being open to evidence, thinking like a scientist, while also being aware that, hey, my default mode is too negative. When I think about people, there's this bias that I have and if I get over that bias I might actually not just learn more about people, but I might realize that there are pleasant surprises everywhere.
Yeah. You know, I'm often told people, people love to email me about what I've gotten wrong about hope and that's great. I appreciate the engagement. But people tell me, you know, hope is like wearing a pair of rose colored glasses. It cuts you off from reality. But truly, most of us are wearing soot colored glasses right now.
We see the worst in people to the point that we're really quite wrong about them. And so being more accurate and skeptical and being more hopeful actually go hand in hand.
[00:18:18] Lainie Rowell: From what I've read, that negativity bias, that is just something that we are born with, it's an evolutionary adaptation because it's trying to keep us safe, right?
But most of us don't live in a constant state of threat. We don't need to be constantly looking for the bad. So it's like we have to retrain our brain not to ignore what's hard, but to refuse to overlook what's good.
[00:18:39] Jamil Zaki: You make a great point, which is that, negativity bias, our tendency to look on the dark side is there for a reason.
You know, in a dangerous world it can help us survive. It's, it's way more important to pay attention to whatever is very scary than to pay attention to whatever is great, right? In order to, to just live. But now, most of us, thankfully, are safer than we were 5,000 or a hundred thousand years ago.
Yeah. Not everybody, of course. Yeah. But. That means that it's important for us to recalibrate our minds, and that's a very active process. It's hard work, but it's worth it in that it allows us to connect better and live healthier and happier lives.
[00:19:21] Lainie Rowell: Definitely worth it. And by the way, I just, I have to fit this in somewhere, so I'm gonna choose to do it right now. In the Appendix B of your book, evaluating the evidence.
I don't think I've ever seen, I don't know if you were inspired by someone else doing this, but I have never seen someone else do a chapter claim rating section where you have, here's the claim. Trust has been on a decline worldwide. Here's the rating of it. You give a five and then anything three or below you give your explanation of, why it can't be a four or a five.
To me, that was so beautiful. Had you seen someone else do that or was that. Just something you thought of.
[00:19:59] Jamil Zaki: No, I had not seen anybody else do it. I'm really appreciate your positivity about that nerdy section of the book.
[00:20:07] Lainie Rowell: I'm a nerd, here for it
[00:20:09] Jamil Zaki: Nerds unite. The reason that I put that in, which is there also section like that in my first book, is because I want to be as transparent with readers as I can, you know, science is not just a set of facts, it's a living process. Yeah. And in my field, psychology, we've found that sometimes, papers that were published many years ago, if you try to run them again, they don't replicate, meaning that scientists can't find the same thing that they did before.
And that's, I think, sadly increased cynicism about science.
[00:20:44] Lainie Rowell: Yes.
[00:20:44] Jamil Zaki: And I think that the best disinfectant is sunlight, right? So if, if there's been a problem with science in my field and others not being as robust as possible, my answer to that is not, let's never talk about the science, but let's talk about more.
Yeah. Let's understand when a claim, something that I'm writing about, something I'm talking about when it's based on a hundred studies, I'm going to be more confident in that claim than when it's based on two brand new studies. Yeah, and that's true of me, but why shouldn't readers know that as well? I want to trust my readers and I want them to trust I, I think of writing a book as building a relationship with the reader, and I think all good relationships are built on trust, and trust in turn is built on transparent and open communication.
[00:21:31] Lainie Rowell: I had never seen that done before and I just really wanted to take a moment to say that I do think that that is a great antidote to maybe someone feeling cynical about things, to actually be transparent and build that trust so thank you for that. With that, in your research, what are some of the biggest barriers we're seeing for people to not only find hope, but maintain hope?
[00:21:56] Jamil Zaki: Oh wow.
[00:21:57] Lainie Rowell: Big question. I know.
[00:21:58] Jamil Zaki: No, it's a great question. I think that one of the biggest barriers to finding and maintaining hope at a personal level is pain and suffering that we've been through in the past. You know, George Carlin once said, scratch a cynic, and you'll find a disappointed idealist.
I don't think that cynical people are just sitting on the sidelines of life trying to dunk on everyone because they think it's fun. Oftentimes the reason that we're cynical is because we have felt betrayal. Yeah, we have felt even trauma in our past, and it's the most natural thing in the world to say, well, I've been hurt now all I want more than anything else is to be safe. And the number one way to be safe is to not take more risks, to not take another chance on a person. This is true of, for instance, kids who have insecure attachment, right? People who early in their life were not in a situation where they could trust their caregivers, those children are more likely to grow into adults who have issues with trust again, there's no part of me interested in blaming people if they feel that way. I, I personally feel that way all the time, but I think that one of the, I think that's a, a huge barrier to hope and to building hope, but b, it hurts us a second time. Mm-hmm. Right. If you've been betrayed and your response to that betrayal is to say, I'm not going to trust people in the future you lose chances to build healthy and meaningful connections for collaboration and friendship and love. And so I think that one of the most difficult things to break is a cycle. Yeah. And that's also why it's one of the most important cases, right? If you felt pain in the past and you feel that apprehension inside you, it's really important, in my opinion, to address it and to start fact checking those feelings.
Mm-hmm. I do this all the time. I say, yes, I've been hurt in the past. Is this new person who I'm talking to, do I have any evidence that they will hurt me? Typically the answer is no. And the upside to trusting just a little bit is much greater than the upside of closing myself off and trying to stay safe.
[00:24:08] Lainie Rowell: You've made a very compelling case. For why we need to overcome our cynicism and to have that hopeful skepticism. And you said yourself that you've been working on this, so what are the things that are working for you that might work for us as well? Like are there any practices? Approaches? What would you suggest?
[00:24:27] Jamil Zaki: Oh, yeah. And, and I should say Hope for Cynics has a less nerdy appendix that's all about the different things you can do now to practice hopeful skepticism. But I'll just share a few, you know, one again, is this idea of fact checking our feelings. It's very easy for the cynic inside us and we all have a cynical voice in our heads to, as we've been talking about, confidently assert some big claim about people and oftentimes we do that without any evidence. So I think. Actually putting your assumptions through their paces, saying, why am I feeling that way? And is, is really helpful. 'cause oftentimes you learn you're feeling that way, not for any good reason. You don't have any data to support the claim. A second thing that I think is really helpful is taking leaps of faith on other people, because it's really hard to learn whether you can trust somebody without trusting them a little bit first.
Yeah. Giving them a chance to show you who they are. And, you know, I'm not saying you have to give your car keys to a stranger or, or anything like that. It's, it's more just these little acts of trust and think of them as, as collecting data. Think of them as saying, well, I'm gonna send a probe out. I'm gonna see what this person gives back to me.
And way more often than not, you find that what they give back is more positive than you thought. And then the last thing I would say is a practice that I've been doing with my family that we love called positive gossip. And the idea here is that oftentimes we don't just think negatively, we also share negatively, right?
So in in my lab, we found that people gossip three times more about the selfish things that people do than about the generous things that they do, which again, can warp our view of what people are like. So my family and I at dinner, we all challenge each other to share one act of human goodness that we saw that day.
Yeah. And I think that builds our collective hope, right? We each fight, each other's cynicism. But the other thing, Lainie, that I've found is that when you know you're going to share something, you detect it more. You know, like if, if I were to tell you tonight at dinner, I want you to tell your family and friends about all the red cars you saw today, right?
I mean, you would suddenly see red cars everywhere because you're primed for it. It turns out that a lot of us are primed to see the bad things that people do, and positive gossip primes you in the opposite direction and can sort of use your attention for good.
[00:26:58] Lainie Rowell: I love that it's you, you see what you look for, right?
So when you're looking for the good, you start to see it more and then you can share it with others. So I love positive gossip. First of all, it's such a catchy name, right? Like people are gonna have some fun with that. And then I really appreciate how, it might just be the way this conversation is catching me today, but I'm definitely hearing a lot about not feeling so certain about things and having a little humility mm-hmm. To question things rather than just to always assume the worst, always assume the best to like be more of, you said it like a scientist and like looking into it. Fact check your feelings. I appreciate you saying that because our feelings are not actually facts, right?
They're information, but they're not facts. So we do have to really question that in ourselves.
[00:27:47] Jamil Zaki: I think we trust our gut way too much. You know, I mean, there's all this, all this popular, you know sort of pop science about whatever, you know, just trust your instincts. And sure our instincts are there for a reason and sometimes they're right, but lots of times they're wrong.
People are way more likely to get into arguments when they're hungry than when they're not. That doesn't mean that that's them trusting their gut, literally way too much. Right. They're hangry and so they think everybody's awful. You know, oftentimes our body is sending us dozens, hundreds of signals at once.
It's a very noisy process. Yes. You can use that Lainie, I think you put it perfectly as information, but don't use it as the truth. Yeah. I think that all also, to your point, humility is really hard work. We want to know. We don't just want to wonder or hypothesize not knowing is a fundamentally uncomfortable state, but it is the state in which learning and growth occur.
Yeah. So I think that embracing uncertainty, embracing humility is a huge part, not just of living a more hopeful life, but of living a life of greater growth.
[00:28:57] Lainie Rowell: And I'm thinking as you're talking about that, just leaning into that uncertainty or curiosity and humility, it's gonna have such a positive impact on the relationships because we, we, again, facts are not feeling.
So when we really try and tease out a little bit what's going on here I think that can be really helpful in our interpersonal relationships. Jamil, you've given us so much good stuff to take away.
You've given us vocabulary that helps us be more accurate in our thinking and feeling, and then also, you've given us so many practical tips, positive gossip is like one that sticks right in my head. And I would love to know, is there anything that you just cannot share enough or you haven't had a chance to share before?
If you were in a restaurant, you would jump on the table and scream to the whole crew. Not that you have to do that, but you'd like to do that because this is so important.
What do we need to know?
[00:29:55] Jamil Zaki: You know one of my favorite writers of all time was Viktor Frankl, the brilliant psychologist and and Holocaust survivor. He practiced existential psychology and he wrote this gorgeous book where he talks about tragic optimism. The book is called Yes to Life in Spite of Everything, and Tragic Optimism is the idea that having faith in humanity is not the same as believing that everything is great.
[00:30:25] Lainie Rowell: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:26] Jamil Zaki: I guess what I'd like to shout from the rooftops is read Viktor Frankl, but if I can just paraphrase his message a little bit. Instead, you know, life is frightening and full of pain, and much of that pain is caused by people just like us, and that is doubly tragic and doubly awful.
And also many, many people have lots of good inside them and want things to be better. Acknowledging the second of those things and having hope in people is not the same as ignoring the first of those things, as hope washing all the terrible things about modern life or human life in fact. Acknowledging the goodness in people is absolutely critical if we want to make a dent in all the suffering in the world because we need to see the good in others in order to assemble all of that good into social movements and into group collective projects to improve our mental health, to improve our lives, to improve our relationships, and to improve our culture.
[00:31:33] Lainie Rowell: Well, I have just found this to be such an empowering conversation and I really love how you're giving us the information so that we can really, like, we're not stuck. We can do things to make life better, to make ourselves better, to improve relationships. So this has been super helpful to me. Jamil, I know people are gonna wanna check out your book.
I'm gonna put a link to Hope for Cynics in the show notes and the full title, Hope for Cynics, the Surprising Science of Human Goodness. So I'll put that in the show notes, but what are other ways that people can connect with you and your work?
[00:32:05] Jamil Zaki: Yeah, thank you. So hope for Cynics is, is out everywhere.
For those folks who like audio books, I did read the audio book myself. I now only listen to books that the author has read themselves. So I thought that's important to clarify. I'm on social media LinkedIn Twitter, and so forth. My website is jamil-zaki.com and you can find out all about my work and speaking and writing there.
[00:32:31] Lainie Rowell: I know people are gonna wanna get more time with you, however they can connect with you through social media, through your website, through your book. I hope they do it all books, plural. Again, Jamil, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
[00:32:44] Jamil Zaki: This has been delightful. Thank you.
[00:32:46] Lainie Rowell: Thank you all for listening.