Shownotes:
What if change isn’t something to fear but something that can reveal who we really are? Cognitive scientist and podcast host Dr. Maya Shankar shares how to navigate uncertainty, redefine identity, and uncover growth on the other side of change. We talk about finding purpose when life takes an unexpected turn, why “possible selves” matter, and the surprising role distraction and gratitude play in resilience.
Maya's Book:
The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans
Thrive Global Article:
About Our Guest:
Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist and the creator, executive producer, and host of the podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, which Apple awarded as the Best Show of the Year 2021 and which received an Ambie award from the Podcast Academy in 2022. Maya was a Senior Advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and served as Chair of the White House Behavioral Science Team. She also served as the first Behavioral Science Advisor to the United Nations under Ban Ki-moon, and as a core member of Pete Buttigieg’s debate preparation team during his 2020 presidential run.
Maya has a postdoctoral fellowship in cognitive neuroscience from Stanford, a Ph.D. in cognitive psychology from Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship, and a B.A. from Yale. She's been profiled by The New Yorker and been the featured guest on NPR's All Things Considered, Freakonomics, and Hidden Brain. She's a graduate of the Juilliard School of Music's pre-college program, where she was a private violin student of Itzhak Perlman.
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, emotional intelligence, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Instagram - @LainieRowell
LinkedIn - @LainieRowell
X/Twitter - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Lainie Rowell: Maya, I am thrilled to get this chance to talk with you. I mean, I'm gonna try not to fan girl out too hard here, but I'm a listener of your podcast, and I can't wait to dive into your new book. So that's a very long way to say welcome.
[00:00:13] Maya Shankar: Thank you so much for having me, Lainie. It is really a pleasure to be here.
[00:00:17] Lainie Rowell: Well, let's get right into it. First of all uncertainty. This is a, like a lifelong struggle of mine.
[00:00:23] Maya Shankar: Me too. That makes both of us.
[00:00:26] Lainie Rowell: So you're writing a book, the Other Side of Change and uncertainty and the loss of control is a big part of why we struggle with change. Is that fair to say?
[00:00:37] Maya Shankar: Yes, that is perfectly said. So change is scary for all sorts of reasons, but I think one of the biggest reasons is that as humans, we love having a firm grip of the steering wheel, right?
[00:00:48] We love knowing how things are gonna turn out and that we can actually control outcomes and dictate how our lives unfold. And I think when a big change happens in our lives, when [00:01:00] that proverbial anvil falls from the clear blue sky, often it can shatter the illusion that we are in control and we are forced to contend with the limits of our control.
[00:01:11] And I think one reason that I was drawn to studying change is that exactly like you, I am so terrified of uncertainty. It fills me with so much anxiety. I always wanna know how the story's gonna end. And there's this fascinating research study which says that people are more stressed when they're told they have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when they're told they have a 100% chance.
[00:01:36] Of getting an electric shock, and it sounds wild, right? But I think so many of us can resonate with this, which is we would rather be certain about even a negative outcome than to have to grapple with any ambiguity.
[00:01:48] Lainie Rowell: I would be like, just tell me the shock is coming.
[00:01:51] Maya Shankar: Exactly. I just want all the shocks.
[00:01:53] I don't wanna have to deal with, you know, any anxiety about whether it's coming or not.
[00:01:57] Lainie Rowell: So much of your beautiful book resonated with me, and one of [00:02:00] the things that you said is, whenever I face a setback or a failure, my instinct has been to jump into action and to try to reduce any uncertainty, outworking the challenge, and my friend, I'm right there with you. This'll be a very cringey example, but I just wanna show you, like, if I could give you a specific example
[00:02:19] Maya Shankar: of how I'm, please, I would love to hear it.
[00:02:21] Lainie Rowell: For my first book, it took me five years from the publisher approaching to it coming out the launch day was March 13th, 2020.
[00:02:31] Like champagne problem, got to write a book. I get it. But it was so frustrating that I had spent all that time building up to this and then to have the uncertainty. So my second book, I did it in 10 months because I, I just completely went into over-functioner mode.
[00:02:48] So the second book happened during the pandemic. That's like, I just wanted to give you like a, a really vivid example of how I over function.
[00:02:57] Maya Shankar: Yeah. And. The other [00:03:00] interesting thing about the story you mentioned with it coming out on March 13th is that I think people like you and me, we try to anticipate all of the potential problems we might face.
[00:03:10] And oftentimes life throws us one that we never could have anticipated. They weren't even in the list of possibilities of things that we would've solved for or gotten ahead of or what have you. And I think that's been the most humbling lesson in my life, navigating change, which is, you know, I embark on a new venture, for example.
[00:03:28] And I think, okay, here are the 18 things that I think could go wrong. Let me preempt them and solve for them and make sure everything's still gonna go okay. And then of course, the universe throws me, you know, that one, that I, that we never saw coming. And it's a very hard thing to grapple with.
[00:03:44] Lainie Rowell: Is it just us, Maya, or does everyone, because I'm gonna tell you, I, there was some event that we were planning. And I, I, I am telling the group like, Hey, I really struggle with uncertainty. And someone comes up after the event and they go, I didn't, I didn't realize you struggled with [00:04:00] uncertainty.
[00:04:00] And I was like, what do you mean? Don't we all struggle with uncertainty? Yeah. I just assumed that was like a default for everyone. Is that not
[00:04:08] Maya Shankar: Absolutely. Change is accompanied by so much uncertainty, and our brains are not wired to enjoy uncertainty. It's an uncomfortable, unpleasant feeling on, on average.
[00:04:17] Of course, there are always humans that are exceptions to the rule, but by and large it's a pretty uncomfortable feeling if you're anticipating, you know. that potentially something negative could happen and you don't really know what the outcome is. I should say on a personal level, the reason that I even wrote The Other Side of Change is I really struggle with change.
[00:04:36] I'm scared of it. I have been a planner since the time I was five years old, right? I was making five year plans and 10 year plans and 15 year plans. I feel like I spent so much of my youth living in the future, and it's only in more recent years that I'm learning how to live in the present, in part because I've, I've seen so many of my plans go awry.
[00:04:57] You know, I've seen my life veer off [00:05:00] course on occasion, and I wanna share one reflection with you, which is when I've gone through really hard moments in my life where again, things went off course and I wasn't expecting it to happen a certain way. I was always greeted by this mantra that we have in our culture, right?
[00:05:19] Which is, you can't control what happens to you, but you can control your reaction to what happens. Mm-hmm. And it has ancient wisdom baked into it. And it's a very, it's meant to be a very empowering mantra, but I just remember a couple years ago, dealing with some major heartbreaks. In my personal life, my husband and I were trying to start a family and we weren't successful and that mantra fell on deaf ears. In that moment. I was like, okay, it sounds great. Yeah, I would love to change how I feel about this situation. I would love to think differently. How the heck do I even do that? I didn't have a concrete plan, and so my book, the Other [00:06:00] Side of Change is a response to my need in that moment, I wanted a guide.
[00:06:04] I wanted someone to tell me, okay, here are the practical strategies. Here are the tools that you can use to actually start to think and feel differently about your change, or here are the right questions you should be asking, here are the right thought experiments you should be engaging in. Because I just felt like without that practical component, I was totally stuck.
[00:06:23] And just in this vortex of rumination and self blame and all the other negative emotions that can accompany a change.
[00:06:32] Lainie Rowell: Well, I appreciate that you and I are not the outliers here.
[00:06:35] Maya Shankar: Definitely not.
[00:06:36] Lainie Rowell: And, and that is why people need to get your book and one of the things you talk about in the book, the End of History Illusion.
[00:06:44] Maya Shankar: Yeah.
[00:06:44] Lainie Rowell: And I'd really love for you to share with us, like what is that and how does that help us to move into a space of maybe more curiosity and self-compassion.
[00:06:56] Maya Shankar: Yeah. So as a cognitive scientist, I of course [00:07:00] love so many of the biases that the field has uncovered, but actually the end of history illusion is one of my favorite, and it's really changed the way that I live my life and the way that I see my future.
[00:07:09] So, in a nutshell, the end of history illusion says that we wildly underestimate how much we're gonna change in the future, even though we fully agree and admit to the fact that we've changed considerably in the past. So for example, Lainie, if you were to show me footage from me in high school or college, I will have such a cringe moment.
[00:07:32] And I will be like, how is that even the same person as me? And why is she wearing those clothes? And why is she wearing a white dress with black flats? That doesn't make sense. And so I will distance myself from that person and think of myself really as like a totally different person with new beliefs and perspectives and attitudes on the world.
[00:07:49] But if you were to ask me what future Maya looks like, I'll say more or less the same. I'm the finished product, done changing, you know, and I think we kind of all intuitively feel this way, that we [00:08:00] are I think one of the researchers who coined this term says, it's like we see the present as this watershed moment in which we become the person we'll be for the rest of our lives.
[00:08:09] It's so beautifully said. And so the reason that this is relevant to change is that, at the outset of a change, we can feel incredibly daunted by the road ahead, but we forget that we won't be the same person on the other side of change, we will actually be a different person, one with new abilities and perspectives and values, and that person might actually be far more capable of navigating the change than our present day selves.
[00:08:35] Lainie Rowell: It's so funny to think about. If I'm getting it right, it's like, oh, back then I was, wow. I mean, I've come so far, but I'm not gonna change anymore.
[00:08:46] 'cause this is already like really good compared to where is that, is that a, a lay person?
[00:08:51] Maya Shankar: I think's the proponent of it, but like, even if you don't think the present is really good,
[00:08:55] Lainie Rowell: that's true.
[00:08:56] Maya Shankar: Like you said, you at least feel you've traversed so much ground between then and [00:09:00] now. It's at least an improvement on the past.
[00:09:02] Right? Yeah. And so, but it's just such a funny quirk in of our brains, but. Accounting for that. Understanding it is actually such an asset because it means that when we are feeling really intimidated by a change, maybe we have reason to feel hopeful, right? A new version of ourselves is gonna be emerging on the other side.
[00:09:21] That's why my book is called The Other Side of Change, because I've seen time and time again all the people that I interviewed for the book, all the people I interviewed for my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans. Would they, will their change to happen again? Of course not, right? Who would want to invite an illness into their lives or a loss, but are they grateful for the person that they transformed into as a result of their change experience?
[00:09:44] Absolutely. And that's been such an uplifting message for someone like me who is really fearful of change. Right? Yeah. It's a good reminder that when a big change happens to us. It can also lead to lasting change within us in ways that we can shape if we know, [00:10:00] you know, the right questions to ask.
[00:10:02] Lainie Rowell: Well, the stories in the book are very compelling.
[00:10:05] Like I, I really want people to get this book and listen to these stories, and there's some of these stories are gonna be like on my problems are not that bad. I mean, not, not that that's the intent, but there were times where
[00:10:17] Maya Shankar: No, I was, I mean, it's perspective giving for sure.
[00:10:19] Lainie Rowell: Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the things, and you're, you're kind of talking about it here, but this rethinking of identity and that whether the change is one you're actually trying to make or something thrust upon you, it can be hard to let go of, well, this is who I am now. What will I be on that other side of change if I, or if I get to that other side of change, what does that say about who I am now?
[00:10:43] Maya Shankar: Mm-hmm. So first of all, I wanna say I'm so glad that you enjoyed the stories. I will say that it is the greatest gift of my adult life to have been in conversation with the people that I profiled for this book.
[00:10:55] I mean, I had the fortune of being able to interview each person [00:11:00] on multiple occasions over several years. And when you have that depth of interviewing, you get to know someone in this robust way where the full picture is painted for you. Right. Of why they responded to a change in a particular way, or what the backdrop
[00:11:16] what the, what was the context for, for why they navigated their change in a, in a particular way. And when I was thinking about what this book could be, I actually challenged myself. I said, Maya, try to find the most phenomenal, extraordinary stories of change in the world and write about them, but importantly, find the universal lessons that sit within them.
[00:11:39] Because to your earlier question, Lainie, you were like, are we alone? Is this just us? Why are we so afraid of uncertainty? Why are we so fearful? But it turns out that underneath the surface of these extraordinary stories lies very human lessons that apply to all of us when we're dealing with more ordinary changes, right?
[00:11:57] Like the end of a relationship or the loss of a [00:12:00] job or an illness. And that is one of my favorite things to do in this space is, is again, share the extraordinary, but show how there's some sort of underlying, unifying message that that lies within it, because we're in a very divided moment in this world, and it's very therapeutic to be reminded of how much we have in common.
[00:12:18] And then to your question on identity that was something that took me a long time to kind of figure out.
[00:12:24] So I knew that change was accompanied by uncertainty. I knew that was one reason why we can be very fearful of it. But it took me interview after interview, after interview to start, start to realize, oh my God, one reason why change is so destabilizing is that it can threaten our fundamental sense of self, so the roles or labels that we attached to our sense of value or self worth are now being called into question, they're now being threatened and that's very scary. Yeah, and I had a very formative experience with change where growing up I was a budding concert violinist. I was [00:13:00] studying at Julliard under Itzhak Perlman, and I had these dreams of going pro and everything was going according to plan until I had a hand injury that ended my dreams basically overnight.
[00:13:11] And so. Obviously, as you can imagine, I was 15 years old. I was totally devastated, totally unmoored. But one thing was so curious about my grief, which is I wasn't just grieving the loss of the instrument, I was also grieving the loss of myself. Yeah. And I wasn't really expecting that. I mean, I think sometimes it takes losing something to realize how much it meant to you, right?
[00:13:36] Mm-hmm. How formative it was, how much it defined your sense of value. And that was such an important lesson, like, oh maybe it's important for me to, to define myself maybe a little more expansively. And the, the lesson that's taken me decades to learn actually is. It can be more sustainable to define ourselves, not simply by what we do, but by why we do those things.
[00:13:59] This is, this gives [00:14:00] us a softer landing when life makes other plans for us. Because if I attach myself to the qualities of music that made me happy, like connecting with people emotionally or getting better at a craft, or expressing my creativity, those traits still remain afterwards, right? Mm-hmm. I, I, even though I lost the violin, I still had those passions sitting within me.
[00:14:21] The essence was still there, and then the thought experiment became well, where else can I find those passions? Yeah. So I would urge everyone listening to ask themselves what their why is, why do they do the things they love? Can they define their identity in those terms? Right? In my case, it was, I'm a person who loves emotional connection.
[00:14:38] I'm a person who loves improving at something, and then can they find other outlets to express that passion?
[00:14:44] Lainie Rowell: Maybe some of us have to relearn over and over again that we wanna not tie our identity to what we do, but why we do it. Mm-hmm. And another thing that you talk about in the book is possible selves. You [00:15:00] describe a magic photo album filled with pictures of ourselves. See, I'm quoting you to you. I have to, I have to do this. This is so fun for me. I know. It's like, probably, maybe it's cringey for you, but this is fun for me.
[00:15:10] Maya Shankar: I love how deeply you engaged with the book.
[00:15:11] That's so, that's so lovely.
[00:15:13] Lainie Rowell: Oh, yes. Yeah. I, there's a lot of highlights in the book, trust me. Well, because. What I love about the book is this balance of the stories and the science. And to me that's a really, really important thing. And when you're talking about possible selves, you say a magic photo album filled with pictures of ourselves from a variety of possible futures.
[00:15:34] And that really stayed with me.
[00:15:36] Maya Shankar: So in everyday life we're always conjuring up these possible selves, right? Visions of what our lives will look like in the future and who we can be.
[00:15:43] And they come in different categories. So hoped for selves are the versions of ourselves that we want to become right. They represent our dreams and our and our wishes. Feared selves represent our worries and anxieties about how the future might turn out and [00:16:00] expected selves reflect, what reality we think is most likely to unfold.
[00:16:05] So yes, I may have dreams of becoming a pop star, but more likely than not, Maya's gonna be a cognitive scientist in five years. Okay? So that's good or bad, what you think is most likely to happen. And when change strikes, it can really change the landscape of possible selves because we now have to generate a vision of who we can become that is rooted in our new reality.
[00:16:28] And that new reality often comes with a bunch of constraints. But here's the thing, we often restrict our imagination more than is necessary in the face of change. So we have all sorts of stereotypes about the futures that are available to people who have endured certain situations, like, maybe they're a high school dropout or maybe they're incarcerated or what have you, and we think, oh, their futures are limited in some way and it's just not true.
[00:16:55] So the key task in this moment is to figure out how can we [00:17:00] crack open our imagination and conjure up more promising positive future selves in our new environment.
[00:17:08] Lainie Rowell: You said the word limitless, so you kind of walked me to it.
[00:17:10] I can't not mention that you are Chris Hemsworth's brain coach. And that was, wasn't the show called Limitless?
[00:17:19] Maya Shankar: It was called limitless. Great memory.
[00:17:21] Lainie Rowell: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I, sorry, I, I wasn't prepared to talk about that, but if you, if you want to, is it, is that a fair connection because he did not see himself as a drummer, absolutely.
[00:17:31] And is this a spoiler alert?
[00:17:33] Maya Shankar: My mission was to push Chris's brain to tap into our brain's incredible capacity for neuroplasticity and to help him strengthen his brain, to help resist age-related decline. And the task we agreed to was him learning how to play the drums and performing with Ed Sheeran in front of 70,000 people, which is totally wild.
[00:17:56] And I think very few people could have pulled that off, but I guess Chris was able to do it [00:18:00] and absolutely he never envisioned a possible self in which he was playing the drums, let alone on this massive stage in a huge stadium. But to our earlier point change can often unlock new abilities and new capabilities that we never, ever saw coming.
[00:18:16] Lainie Rowell: I love that. And whether it's, again, change that we are seeking to make or that is thrust upon us, we don't wanna restrict ourselves. We want to...
[00:18:25] Maya Shankar: exactly.
[00:18:25] Lainie Rowell: We want to remain open to those possible selves. I really appreciate that.
[00:18:30] Maya Shankar: I was just gonna give a couple of strategies people can use when it comes to generating new, more hopeful selves.
[00:18:36] So the first is to remember that just because you're experiencing a change, doesn't mean that you've lost all of the talents and skills and abilities that you've built up until that moment in time. So when it came to the violin, for example. The technical part of playing the violin wasn't gonna be useful to me in future pursuits.
[00:18:54] But guess what would be all the grit I had built? The resilience in the face of [00:19:00] failure. Oh my gosh, I failed so much and like built thicker skin. A love of learning.
[00:19:04] Yeah. And improving at something. And so a helpful question that people can ask at these inflection points is, who else can this person be? Right? This person who's had these particular set of experiences and has built these particular skills and has these technical abilities, whatever they are, how do those lend themselves to another step?
[00:19:25] And I think that's nice 'cause it also helps build some continuity between your past self and your future self. The other thing I would recommend is to invite what's called moral elevation into your life. So this is one of my favorite concepts in the field of cognitive psychology. Moral elevation is that warm, fuzzy feeling we experience.
[00:19:46] When we witness someone else's extraordinary actions. It might be their ability to forgive someone or their compassion or their, generosity or their resilience, right? Any upstanding [00:20:00] character trait falls into this bucket. And when we experience something like that, it doesn't just make us feel good.
[00:20:06] It actually changes our brains in a really powerful way. Because when we witness someone acting in a way that challenges our undertanding of humans and what they're capable of. It also cracks open our own imagination about what we are capable of. So in the book I write a story about a young man named Dwayne who was sentenced to nine years in an adult prison.
[00:20:26] As a result of a carjacking and you know, 16 years old at the time, terrified of who he might become while in prison. He has all these stereotypes, right, about what that then inform what he sees as his destiny. And then about a year into a sentence, he encounters someone who fills him with moral elevation.
[00:20:47] The way that this guy is violates Dwayne's expectations of what it can mean to be a prisoner, right? He's vulnerable and he cares for the younger prisoners and he teaches them how to box so they can protect [00:21:00] themselves from violence. And he carries himself as Dwayne says, like a man in uniform, right?
[00:21:05] He's so disciplined and he does 250 pushups before the guards even come by for count. And he irons his clothes each day. And like Dwayne says, that this man was making a statement, this is my identity. I'm choosing to be a certain way. And when Dwayne saw that, he understood that maybe he had other futures available to himself that he had not previously thought possible.
[00:21:31] And so with that more empowered mindset, when he later encountered a book of poetry that spoke to the experience in prison of young men of color, he was inspired to become a poet. It was just because of that moment of moral elevation that it unlocked this. And fast forward today, Dwayne is a MacArthur Genius Winner.
[00:21:52] He's a Yale Law School graduate. He writes beautiful poetry that gives voice to people who are [00:22:00] unrepresented. And I just think that's such a poignant illustration of the power of moral elevation.
[00:22:05] Lainie Rowell: Well, I got chills as you were saying it and that is one of my favorite stories in the book is that moral beauty and the kind of the awe, like I know you mentioned Dacker Keltner's work.
[00:22:15] I'm, I'm a big fan. He's been on the pod too.
[00:22:17] Maya Shankar: Oh, I love that. I love that.
[00:22:18] Lainie Rowell: And I just think that that story is so incredibly lovely to show how someone could overcome what they have said as their own limitations by seeing such good in the in someone else, in their same position. So, yeah.
[00:22:34] Maya Shankar: And what I love is how flexible a tool moral elevation is.
[00:22:37] So, mm-hmm. In my own life, when I was reflecting on moments where I felt elevated one that came to mind was after the horrific shooting in South Carolina and Mother Emmanuel Church, I witnessed on tv the daughter of one of the victims expressing forgiveness to the racist killer, and I was totally stunned by her capacity to forgive.
[00:22:58] I thought, oh my God, humans are [00:23:00] capable of a forgiveness, a depth of forgiveness that I did not even think possible. But what's so interesting, Lainie, is that it's not like in that moment I was choosing whether or not to forgive someone or I was seeking someone else's forgiveness. What moral elevation does is no matter what we're going through in our lives, it helps us see that more is possible. So I saw this woman's example and it cracked open my own imagination around whether I was capable of more kindness or more empathy, or more courage. You know, it doesn't have to be in the domain you witness. Right? In the case of Dwayne, he witnesses this other prisoner.
[00:23:34] They didn't go on to do the same things. Right. He wasn't hoping to have that same leadership presence that this man had in prison and that was okay.
[00:23:41] Lainie Rowell: I think all change has the potential to be positive. Is that fair to say?
[00:23:45] Maya Shankar: Yeah. Yeah. Not all of it will be positive. Of course like one thing I was so intent on with this book was giving a realistic understanding of how harrowing change can be.
[00:23:55] It's just that there are unexpected opportunities that sit on the other side of change.
[00:23:59] Lainie Rowell: [00:24:00] That's an important nuance. I appreciate that. And you know, I've had years of interviewing brilliant people such as yourself, social scientists and neuroscientists, and I am writing articles about them, but I sometimes just sit down and process, and one of the articles I wrote after interviewing Katy Milkman actually, it was a while after I'd interviewed Katy, but it was after hearing other conversations, but the psychological cost of change, and so we've talked about identity, which is one of the ones that has come up a lot for me. Then there's also. And these are just the ones that are resonating with me.
[00:24:32] So I kind of want you to feel free to poke holes in it and be like, Lainie, that's not actually that big a one. Or, Hey, you're totally missing out on other ones. But so identity friction was one of 'em. Present bias that I just want it to be like easy now, and that's like something I would have to do for my future self.
[00:24:48] No thanks. I'd rather just be happy now. And then also just habitual efficiency. The fact that our brains like what's familiar, because that's easier. So those are just some of the things [00:25:00] that I think of that make change psychologically costly. Am I missing some other big ones or is there
[00:25:05] Maya Shankar: Well, present bias is, is, and both of them are huge.
[00:25:08] Yeah. And, and of course you're absolutely not alone in wanting to prioritize your present day self because often working towards the future self is uncomfortable and hard. Yeah. So. One challenge, even with the possible selves experiment is that you can conjure up all sorts of selves, but they often require a lot of hard work to achieve those selves.
[00:25:27] Right? So going back to Dwayne's story, he didn't become a poet overnight. He wrote poetry like it was his daily exercise in his first year after stumbling upon the book that inspired him. He wrote a thousand poems, right? So it requires a deep commitment, and I would say. It's funny you mentioned Katy Milkman
[00:25:46] she's a dear friend of mine. She has two really effective strategies for motivating behavioral change. So one, and I'm sure you guys talked about some of these, one is my favorite one that I use all the time in my daily life.
[00:25:58] Lainie Rowell: Can I guess?
[00:25:59] Maya Shankar: Yeah, [00:26:00] please.
[00:26:00] Lainie Rowell: Temptation Bundling.
[00:26:01] Maya Shankar: Yes. Temptation Bundling.
[00:26:02] Lainie Rowell: I had, I'm sorry, I didn't wanna steal your thunder, but I think you, didn't you write about it in the book?
[00:26:06] Maya Shankar: I do. I write it on the book.
[00:26:07] Lainie Rowell: Okay, so that's so, so I was locked and loaded with that because that's actually my favorite one too. Sorry.
[00:26:11] Maya Shankar: Yeah, it's so effective. So all that temptation bundling requires is to pair the undesirable hard thing that you're trying to do. So maybe it's working out or writing or, what are other hard things? I don't know. There's so many hard things. Almost everything that we work towards is, has some element of challenge, and then you pair that with a desirable activity that gives you an immediate reward. So for example let's say I'm trying to maintain a cleaner home, right? I need to fold my laundry.
[00:26:38] I need to do the dishes more often. You pair that with listening to your favorite podcast or listening to your favorite music. And importantly, you need to deny yourself access to those rewards in other contexts. Yes. So you can't like listen to your favorite music in other settings.
[00:26:53] 'cause then you lose the powerful bond that that hard activity has with the immediately rewarding activity. Yeah. [00:27:00] And I really do feel like it's changed my life. I wonder what kind of temptation bundling you do Lainie.
[00:27:05] Lainie Rowell: Katy and I talked about this. She's like, it's good for things other than exercise.
[00:27:08] I'm like, girl, exercise is the hard one for me. But I really appreciate what you said about like cleaning the house. So like a really good Temptation Bundling would be to clean the house, while listening to Maya on A Slight Change of Plans, because that is a joyful experience that will motivate you. You only get to do it while you're cleaning the house.
[00:27:28] Yeah. No, I think those are the, the,
[00:27:29] Maya Shankar: I love your Temptation Bundle. Thank you very much.
[00:27:32] Lainie Rowell: But seriously, exercising is the tough one for me. So it is my favorite podcast I listen to at the gym. Mm-hmm. And there's, there's other ones too, and sometimes I mix it up, but it's definitely the most effective for me with exercise.
[00:27:46] I also do have one for writing, so Oh, great. I was born caffeinated and you really don't want to see me after like a full latte or anything like that. I'm so sensitive to caffeine that even [00:28:00] decaf is a lot, but I do like the taste of it, so I will allow myself to drink one cup of dec half coffee while I write that's one of mine.
[00:28:08] Maya Shankar: Oh, I love that. So I have my equivalent. So when I was writing this book, which took me three and a half years, 'cause I apparently am a crazy perfectionist. I had a bowl of these coffee candy chews that I would just down during my writing session. So I was basically allowing myself unlimited candy anytime I was writing.
[00:28:27] And that was, so I was a child basically. But that was a very powerful motivator.
[00:28:31] Lainie Rowell: But that is what I think that is what we have to do to overcome that Present Bias
[00:28:35] Maya Shankar: Absolutely.
[00:28:35] Lainie Rowell: Is that Temptation Bundling.
[00:28:36] Maya Shankar: So, yeah. Another really effective strategy concerns how our brains form memories. So one of the most fascinating insights about the brain is when we reflect back on an experience, we don't give every moment equal weight.
[00:28:49] Lainie Rowell: Yes.
[00:28:49] Maya Shankar: So we give more emphasis and more weight and value to the peak moment of the experience, whether negative or positive, just like the most emotionally heightened part, [00:29:00] and then the end of the experience.
[00:29:02] So what you should do to try to sort of hack your brain, hack the system is introduce something a little bit pleasurable at the end of a hard thing. So let's say you work out, you make the workout a little bit less hard at the end, or you cool down in a way that's really enjoyable. 'cause maybe let's say you really enjoy deep breathing or stretching or whatnot, you will actually remember the experience more favorably than you would if you ended on that really high intensity workout, and it'll make it more likely that you return to the task in the future.
[00:29:30] Lainie Rowell: Oh my gosh, you're blowing my mind. 'cause I actually do this and I didn't even realize I did it. This is gonna sound super bougie, but my gym has a sauna and what I do is after the workout, I go into the sauna. I kind of just wanna get to that sauna.
[00:29:43] Maya Shankar: I know, but that's great because now you associate going to the gym and working out with Sauna time and it got a little bit more weight in your memory of the experience.
[00:29:51] So that's, you see, you're a behavioral scientist. You don't even know it.
[00:29:54] Lainie Rowell: I'm definitely not, but now I feel validated. And now, but now, but see the awareness of [00:30:00] it, because I was just, I just happened to be doing it the last. Few times I was going to the gym, but now that I know, that's actually helping motivate me.
[00:30:07] I hope no one's like the key takeaway from this episode is that Lainie needs a lot of motivation to get to the gym, but no, you've given so many nuggets.
[00:30:14] Maya Shankar: Okay. Hold up.
[00:30:15] We all need motivation to do hard things. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And life is so busy and there's so much distraction. And in this collective moment in the world, we're also feeling very exhausted.
[00:30:26] Yeah. And somewhat disconnected. And so I think it's completely understandable that you would feel this way, and I implore you to have more self-compassion.
[00:30:35] Lainie Rowell: Oh my goodness. The next time I'm having one of these moments, I'm gonna say, what would Maya say to me?
[00:30:39] Maya Shankar: Yeah. Be nicer to yourself, girl.
[00:30:42] Lainie Rowell: I appreciate you.
[00:30:43] Maya Shankar: Like the rest of us.
[00:30:43] Lainie Rowell: I appreciate that. I don't wanna give away too much of your story. First of all, your story and your journey to parenthood is something that deserves way more time than we have for this conversation, but you do it beautifully in the book, and there's a whole episode on a Slight Change of Plans where you talk about [00:31:00] your journey.
[00:31:01] There was a moment in that difficult time a few years ago where Jimmy encourages you to practice Gratitude.
[00:31:08] Maya Shankar: Yeah.
[00:31:09] Lainie Rowell: Gratitude is something that I write and speak about and sometimes people give a look like, don't get toxic positivity on me. Now
[00:31:16] Maya Shankar: Totally.
[00:31:17] Lainie Rowell: I think that Gratitude is about not ignoring the hard, refusing to overlook the good, but I would just love to hear what are your thoughts on that when your husband in this very, very difficult moment is like, let's practice some Gratitude.
[00:31:29] Maya Shankar: Yeah. So, well, I should start off by saying that you're reminding me that when I recorded the episode of a slight change of plans, it was the day after we had had our second pregnancy loss, when we had lost identical twins with our beloved surrogate. And now that so much time has passed and in the writing of the final chapter of the book, that distance gave me so much insight into my experience.
[00:31:54] And there's a meta lesson in that, which is when we're in the throes of change, we don't always see [00:32:00] how much we're learning and how much we're changing and how transformative the experience is. So hold onto some hope everyone, like for anyone who's in it, like they're in the throes of it right now and it feels like there's nothing redemptive about their experience.
[00:32:14] I was like you. I was in that situation. I was like, there is nothing good to be had from this. This is just crappy through and through. But I see what my husband and I went through so differently now, and from a new vantage point where I actually do feel deep Gratitude for the person I've become and for the insights that I that I learned from going through this very arduous, you know, at the time, really, really deeply devastating experience. So I just wanna share that. Yeah. Second is my husband, actually, he's a software engineer, but he unknowingly engaged me in what psychologists call a self affirmation exercise.
[00:32:50] So this is when you turn the spotlight towards all the parts of your identity that remain intact as you're navigating a change. So it's all the parts of you that are still [00:33:00] very present and still very much there that are not threatened by the change you're navigating.
[00:33:05] Let me set the scene for the day. Okay. We wake up, we find out that our surrogate is bleeding. We then have a doctor's appointment where we see two healthy beating hearts, so our hopes are super high, and then we learn that there's a miscarriage.
[00:33:20] Of the twins a few hours later. So this was the most hellish emotional rollercoaster of a day you can imagine. And that night as we were getting ready for bed, Jimmy, my husband, comes into our bedroom and goes, Mai, that's his pet name for me. He's like, Mai, let's just focus on a couple things that we're really grateful for.
[00:33:40] If I'm gonna be honest with you, Lainie, I was like, oh hell no.
[00:33:44] Okay.
[00:33:45] I was like, bro, take your Instagram nonsense. Go into that corner. You do your little Gratitude thing. I am gonna stay here in bed and mope.
[00:33:54] Okay. I was like not having it, and I'm like, after today, it felt honestly [00:34:00] jarring.
[00:34:00] Yeah.
[00:34:01] To do, to practice Gratitude, given how I was feeling at the time. But he, you know, eventually wore me down and I started to practice the exercise and all these things started to come to mind. So it was like, oh my God, I'm really grateful that I've gotten to work with the same people for over 10 years and we're all like, still really, really close friends.
[00:34:22] How amazing is it that I've spent my adult life with my close friends and get to work with them? Yeah. I'm so lucky that I get to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. I am so grateful that I get to work out with my personal trainer over Zoom, all these things like I'm, I'm so grateful to live in California to have the beautiful, strong rays of the California sun on me every day when I wake up.
[00:34:45] And as I was reciting the list of things that make me, me, that make my life full. Something magical started to happen. I swear to God, I'm not even a spiritual person, but I felt transformed in that [00:35:00] moment, which was I was zooming out and I was seeing how incredibly rich and multifaceted my identities are.
[00:35:12] How there were so many things in my life that I found great meaning in, even though I was maybe not gonna become a mother, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this, but sometimes when we are chasing after a goal, in this case, starting a family, you become so single-mindedly focused on that goal that you develop tunnel vision, you forget about everything else that matters to you, everything else that you take deep pride in.
[00:35:37] And it was just this wonderful psychological distancing that occurred and I left that conversation, my husband thinking, huh, I felt before this that I was fully broken and that I had lost everything 'cause that's the trick our minds will play on us, but actually so much is still intact. Like there's so much Maya.
[00:35:59] Yeah. That's [00:36:00] still there in, in my life. And so it was this really, really beautiful moment and a great example to me of the science working in my actual life.
[00:36:09] Lainie Rowell: That's such a beautiful example of how transcendent Gratitude is. I get a little defensive not against you. You're great.
[00:36:16] I get defensive when people label Gratitude as like, woo woo. When it's actually very, very powerful and lots of science behind it.
[00:36:24] Maya Shankar: Totally science based. Yeah. There's so much science. Exactly. No, that's not, that's not woo woo.
[00:36:30] Lainie Rowell: Well, thank you for sharing that in such a beautiful way. I do want to ask you two final questions.
[00:36:35] One is I just wanna give you an opportunity to share something that maybe you haven't shared already or that you can't share enough. You would shout it from the rooftops.
[00:36:43] Maya Shankar: Distraction is actually a healthy, productive tool and coping mechanism in the face of change. So in particularly in the Western world, I think we have a narrative that is circulating, which is that we have to confront head on and persistently our [00:37:00] negative emotions.
[00:37:01] Otherwise, they will rear their ugly heads at some point in the future with even greater vengeance and that is simply not true. Recent research reflects a much more complex story, one that speaks to individual differences, and the fact that actually when we're experiencing something really negative and we distract ourselves and we don't feel like that negative thing keeps surfacing, that's a good sign that it's actually a healthy, productive tool to use.
[00:37:28] As if the change isn't already bad enough people are thinking, oh my God, and I'm not processing it right now, and so I'm doing myself a disservice and my future self a disservice. And why am I not just spending all of my hours every single day in therapy?
[00:37:41] Well, guess what? Sometimes you just need a breath, you need to watch a rerun of the summer. I turn pretty. You need to watch the Bachelor or Love is Blind. You need to just get your, you need to cook or knit or whatever the thing is that you like to do. And giving yourself these breaks, these mental breaks away from [00:38:00] the challenging or traumatic experience you're going through can long term be fantastic.
[00:38:06] So I just wanna deburden people on that front.
[00:38:08] Lainie Rowell: Wow. I love that so much. Especially thinking about how. We, we don't wanna ruminate, and I've never really heard anyone say it like that, that distraction can be what breaks that cycle of rumination, if I got that right. Is that fair to say?
[00:38:23] Maya Shankar: Yes. So distraction again, if you're distracting yourself, it's not a sign necessarily that this thing is going to be even worse down the line. That's just not true. So I just want people to be mindful of that and to find things that they love and to give themselves permission to do the things they love. And if you come at the other side having done a crafting thing or cooking baking cookies or whatever it is, and you're feeling really good, that's great.
[00:38:50] You weren't suppressing horribleness like you know, I'm giving you full permission to enjoy, enjoy that distraction.
[00:38:57] Lainie Rowell: Well, I have to loop us back to uncertainty. 'cause I will tell you, [00:39:00] I will go to the mat with anyone on this. I love Hallmark movies now. I used to hate them pre pandemic. I thought they were such
[00:39:08] like not worth our time, and I have now come to love Hallmark movies. I love it because I need a little certainty in my life. And so this is, this is my distraction when I'm feeling like...
[00:39:18] Maya Shankar: And they always have such a clean, perfect ending. It's great. They, they don't even try to surprise you. They're like, Nope.
[00:39:23] They did end up fully in love and they have seven minutes. Super happy life.
[00:39:27] Lainie Rowell: It comes to conclusion in seven minutes. I've timed it. That's hilarious. But I'm like, oh, are they gonna do it? I'm like, oh yeah, they got seven minutes. This is gonna work out this way.
[00:39:35] Maya Shankar: It's Hallmark. So yeah, its not gonna let us down.
[00:39:37] Lainie Rowell: Maya, you are an absolute delight and I have had so much fun chatting with you. I know everyone's gonna wanna stay connected to you. So what are the best ways for those who are listening or reading, staying in touch with you?
[00:39:48] Maya Shankar: Yes. What a pleasure it was to connect with you too Lainie and it seems like we are very much kindred spirits. So the first way is to buy a copy of my book, the Other Side of Change. It is definitely the thing I'm most proud [00:40:00] to have created. It was a total passion project from the outset. And my hope is that they will be able to navigate change better and with a greater sense of possibility. They can also follow A Slight Change of Plans wherever they get their podcasts. It's free on all platforms. And you can also follow me on Instagram at Dr.
[00:40:16] Maya Shankar, so D-R-M-A-Y-A-S-H-A-N-K-A-R.
[00:40:21] Lainie Rowell: I'm gonna put a link to The Other Side of Change in the show notes so people can get their copy. ASAP when they're listening to this. If they're listening to this, the day this drops, that is actually your launch day. So we're seeing it's, yes, we're aligning it.
[00:40:33] So if you're hearing this, the day this episode drops, it is also the day that this incredible book is out in the world. Link is in the show notes. Go ahead and click on that. Grab your copy. And Maya, oh my gosh, I could talk to you for hours. I promise I'll let you go. But it's been so fun and thank you, and then thank you all who've been listening.
[00:40:54] Maya Shankar: Thanks so much.