Shownotes:
What does it really take to thrive, not just achieve?
In this conversation, award-winning journalist and author Jennifer Breheny Wallace shares why mattering is a fundamental human need and how feeling valued for who we are, not just what we do, supports sustainable achievement, well-being, and connection.
We talk about the difference between belonging and mattering, the SAID framework, and small, meaningful ways to help ourselves and others feel seen and valued.
Thrive Global Article: Jennifer Breheny Wallace on Mattering
Mentioned on the show: The Surprising Way Sliding Door Moments Can Lead to Profound Gratitude (Counterfactual Thinking)
About Our Guest:
Jennifer Breheny Wallace is an award-winning journalist and bestselling author who explores the power of mattering in everyday life. Through research and storytelling, Wallace examines the hidden forces shaping modern life, from the crisis of meaning in achievement culture to the essential role of mattering in personal, workplace, and societal health.
Her first book, Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic — And What We Can Do About It, was a New York Times Bestseller, an Amazon Best Book of the Year, and a Next Big Idea selection. Her latest book Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose, is out now.
Wallace is a maternal mental health advocate at Calm, the mental health app, a consultant at Netflix, and a BCG BrightHouse Luminary. She has also partnered with The LEGO Group on its global "Play Unstoppable" campaign, aimed at addressing perfectionism and fostering confidence through play.
Wallace started her journalism career at CBS's “60 Minutes” and was part of the team that won the Robert F. Kennedy Awards for Excellence in Journalism. She is a contributor to The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post and frequently appears on national television programs.
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, emotional intelligence, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Instagram - @LainieRowell
LinkedIn - @LainieRowell
X/Twitter - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: The first book I wrote Never Enough, came out a couple of years ago and it was covering a group of kids who were newly named at risk, meaning two to six times more likely to suffer from clinical levels of anxiety and depression than the average American teen.
[00:00:14] And these were students that researchers call students attending high achieving schools. So those are public and private schools all around the country. Those kids were now struggling and I went in search for that book of the kids who were doing well despite the pressure, I wanted to know what they had in common.
[00:00:32] And it boiled down to mattering that the kids who were doing well, despite the pressure, felt like they mattered for who they were deep at their core, away from their achievements. And away from their successes or failures. And as I was researching the book, it struck me in my conversations that so many adults in their lives felt like they didn't matter.
[00:00:54] Whether they were doctors in major hospitals feeling crushed by insurance companies [00:01:00] or parents working in finance, feeling replaceable, others feeling invisible. And so I thought to myself, how can parents show up as the first responders to their kids' struggles if they are spending eight, 10, sometimes 12 hours a day in work environments where they are chronically being made to feel like they don't matter?
[00:01:21] And the truth is they can't. So we are right in sounding the alarm on the youth mental health crisis, but we would be just as right to sound the alarm on the crisis of the caregivers in their lives.
[00:01:34] Welcome to the Evolving With Gratitude podcast. I'm your host, Lainie Rowell. I'm an author and speaker, and I'm here to help you optimize happiness, relationships, and performance.
[00:01:46] What does it really take to thrive? Not just achieve, but genuinely flourish in our work and relationships? High achievement is often held up as the ultimate goal, but as many of us know from lived experience, achievement alone does not [00:02:00] guarantee thriving. That paradox sits at the heart of my recent conversation with Jennifer Wallace, award-winning journalist and author of Mattering The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose.
[00:02:10] Also the author of Never Enough When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic and What We Can Do about It. Her work explores why so many high performing individuals and communities are struggling, and what truly allows people to do well under pressure here is Jennifer Wallace. Enjoy.
[00:02:25] Lainie Rowell: Welcome, Jennifer. Super excited to have this conversation.
[00:02:28] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, happy to be here. Thank you so much.
[00:02:31] Lainie Rowell: So excited about your latest book coming out. Could we start with the basics of just what is mattering?
[00:02:38] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yes. So mattering is a basic, fundamental human need that researchers have been studying since the 1980s.
[00:02:47] And it is the feeling of feeling valued and having an opportunity to add value to the world. So the researchers who study it say that after the drive for food and shelter, it is the [00:03:00] motivation to matter that drives human behavior for better or for worse. So when we. Feel like we matter. We show up to the world in positive ways.
[00:03:08] We wanna engage, we wanna connect, we wanna contribute. But when we are chronically made to feel like we don't matter, we often withdraw. We can turn to substances or self-harm to try to alleviate the pain. Or some of us may lash out in anger. Road rage, online attacks, political extremes are often desperate attempts to say, I'll show you I matter.
[00:03:32] People will go to extremes to try to get this need met.
[00:03:36] Lainie Rowell: It's that essential. I hear you putting it up there with food and water. It is such an essential thing that is being overlooked in a lot of spaces.
[00:03:46] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Nobody thinks about, nobody knows about this need. And I should also explain that mattering is described by researchers as a meta need or an umbrella term, meaning it's a need above other needs.
[00:03:59] [00:04:00] So it also meaning that it encompasses other needs, things like belonging, connection, mastery, self-determination, but mattering goes deeper. For example, you could belong to the accounting department at your company, but not feel like you matter to that accounting. You could belong to a friend group, a wide friend group and not feel like you actually matter to those people.
[00:04:24] So mattering takes that sense of belonging, like your book club and saying, actually my voice matters here. Yes. It's not just that I belong to the book club, I am a contributing member and I'm valued here.
[00:04:36] Lainie Rowell: That's really helpful. I have to tell you 'cause I just read your book and I read every word. Amazing.
[00:04:41] Highly recommend. And I was talking with a friend and they were saying that they had a really disengaged member on their team. And so I had you front of mind and I said, do you think they feel like they matter? And the person completely paused and goes, [00:05:00] wow I don't know. And I said maybe that's something to think about.
[00:05:03] Maybe they feel like their contribution isn't important to everyone, and that is having them step back a little bit and not be as engaged.
[00:05:12] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yes, I have found in the research on workplace engagement
[00:05:16] That mattering mattering can be felt or not mattering on a spectrum.
[00:05:21] Yeah. And I think about burnout as the idea of mattering too much without your needs ever being prioritized. So I think about caregivers, I think about first responders. I think about people who are overwhelmed, CEOs who just matter too much, but their needs are never prioritized. And then on the other end of the spectrum are people like your friend was talking about who don't feel like they matter and so they disengage as a form of self-protection.
[00:05:51] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:05:51] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: If I don't feel like I matter. Then I'm gonna disengage here so that I don't actually feel that pain of not mattering. So [00:06:00] yeah, I think you're, I think you hit it on the head.
[00:06:03] Lainie Rowell: I wanna take a, just a tiny step back because I think it would be helpful for people listening to
[00:06:09] understand there's a connection between your previous work, which is Never Enough, and really that started this conversation about the achievement culture. And can you walk us through how that deep dive led to this deep dive?
[00:06:26] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: So the first book I wrote Never Enough, came out a couple of years ago and it was covering a group of kids who were newly named at risk, meaning two to six times more likely to suffer from clinical levels of anxiety and depression than the average American teen.
[00:06:41] And these were students that researchers call Uh, students attending high achieving schools. So those are public and private schools all around the country. Those kids were now struggling and I went in search for that book of the kids who were doing well despite the pressure, I wanted to know what they had in [00:07:00] common.
[00:07:00] And it boiled down to mattering that the kids who were doing well, despite the pressure, felt like they mattered for who they were deep at their core, away from their achievements. And away from their successes or failures. And as I was researching the book, it struck me in my conversations that so many adults in their lives felt like they didn't matter.
[00:07:21] Whether they were doctors in major hospitals feeling crushed by insurance companies or parents working in finance, feeling replaceable, others feeling invisible. And so I thought to myself, how can parents show up as the first responders to their kids' struggles if they are spending eight, 10, sometimes 12 hours a day in work environments where they are chronically being made to feel like they don't matter?
[00:07:49] And the truth is they can't. So we are right in sounding the alarm on the youth mental health crisis, but we would be just as right to sound the alarm on the [00:08:00] crisis of the caregivers in their lives. And so I make the argument in the book that if we want to solve for the youth mental health crisis to make a dent in it, we need to go upstream and take care of the adults in their lives and help them feel like they matter at work so that they could come home and be those first responders and their best selves for their kids.
[00:08:22] Lainie Rowell: I really appreciate the perspective of upstream and sometimes we miss what's happening upstream and then we're just playing a whack-a-mole downstream and we really need to be focused on what are all the factors that are contributing to this. And I just find it so fascinating. I really appreciate your work with Never Enough, and now with Mattering that we can see people who are high achieving.
[00:08:47] That doesn't necessarily mean they're thriving. And so for you to find the thread of commonality, the, this is what they're all having when they're high achieving and they're thriving, is that they all have a sense of mattering. And [00:09:00] if I'm not mistaken, not just tied to the achievement. In fact, not a tied to Exactly.
[00:09:04] Not tied to that.
[00:09:05] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Not tied to the achievement. Exactly. And. As I say in about my first book in my first book, I say I'm not anti achievement. I'm not anti success. I love achieving. I love having successes but my worth does not rest on my success or my failures? Yeah. I believe and there's reasons for this.
[00:09:27] I, it was rooted in my childhood and I have people in my life who remind me of my worth when I question it, but that I am worthy no matter what. And when I found 'em on the high achievers, in the young people that I met and actually attracts with the older people that I've met too, the adults that I interviewed for, the second book is that
[00:09:44] it was actually mattering. It was through mattering that these adults were able to and young people achieve in sustainable ways. So in other words, kids who really felt like their mattering was contingent on [00:10:00] their performance would pull back if a goal felt too risky.
[00:10:06] Because they did not have mattering to spare.
[00:10:09] Failing and setbacks were felt like an indictment of their worth versus the young people and the adults who felt like they mattered no matter what, and so therefore felt compelled to reach for high goals because if they miss them. It's not, again, it's not an indictment of who they are.
[00:10:26] And so mattering and high achievement are not mutually exclusive. It's actually through mattering that we have the bandwidth and the courage to reach for high goals.
[00:10:39] Lainie Rowell: I appreciate you diving into that nuance because we definitely would not want people to have the message of, we're anti achievement. No, we want achievement, but sustainable achievement and that people don't feel like their worth is tied to their latest accomplishment or their grades or anything, [00:11:00] especially when there's so many things out of our control that sometimes dictate that level of success.
[00:11:05]
[00:11:05] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: And it is a counter-cultural idea, bizarrely that our worth is unconditional. I quote sometimes the Dutch theologian Henry Nouwen, who has talked about the three great lies of our society. And those are, I am what I have, I am what I do, and I am what people say and think about me.
[00:11:28] So those are the things that erode mattering. Those are the things, those are those lies of our society put up hurdles to this idea of unconditional worth. And so I think the first step is as an adult or as a caregiver, is to point out those lies. One of the things I love doing with young people when I talk to them in schools is I like to say, the next time you don't feel worthy, the next time you don't feel like you're enough, I want you to pause and I want you to think about who is profiting off of [00:12:00] making you feel that way.
[00:12:01] And they all go it's this big revelation. But I also say that, to myself, if I'm feeling like I'm not enough. Why?
[00:12:09] Lainie Rowell: Yeah,
[00:12:09] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Why am I feeling that way? And it's often because I've let my deep connections go because I've been fo too focused narrowly on work, which happens from time to time when you're trying to meet a goal.
[00:12:21] But if you are an adult and you are feeling that way, the first step is finding the people in your life who remind you of your worth, who make you feel like you matter, and start spending a little more time with them.
[00:12:35] Lainie Rowell: That's great advice. I'd love to have you share about the mattering core and what are the elements, 'cause that is a big part of how the book is organized and I know the listener can't see this, but there are a lot of Post-its in here and at some point I like was like, okay, I need to have a higher bar for putting a post-it on it, but there's like everything underlined, so
[00:12:59] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: That's so [00:13:00] nice.
[00:13:00] Lainie Rowell: What are the essential elements that we need to really be tending to.
[00:13:04] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, that's great. So I have what I call the said framework, which is pulling out of the ingredients of mattering. So researchers have been studying mattering and finding these key ingredients.
[00:13:17] And the said framework, SAID, captures the four main ingredients. So the first one is significance. What does it mean to feel significant? Yes, we feel significant when we're being toasted on a milestone birthday or at a retirement party or at a bridal shower or whatever. But mattering is really in felt in the everyday.
[00:13:40] So what are the everyday ways that we can be made to feel like we're significant? It's in the details. I'll give you an example. I was at a national conference and a tea. It was a national teacher conference and a teacher received an award, but what made his eyes tear up was that his colleagues presented him with [00:14:00] a huge thing of M & Ms because those were his favorite treat at three o'clock every day.
[00:14:04] That was like his little prize for getting through the day, and he teared up because he felt seen. Yeah. And valued and prioritized that his needs his interests, his quirks were top of mind with his colleagues. So feeling significant is really just feeling remembered and thought of. And mattering is in the details when it comes to significance. The next element is appreciated. What does it mean tore to feel appreciated? I'll give you an example. Let's say your friend buys you a beautiful sweater for your birthday. You could say to your friend, thank you so much for this beautiful sweater.
[00:14:46] I love it. Or you can give a kind of appreciation that bolsters mattering in the other person, and that would be something like, you are always so [00:15:00] thoughtful. Thank you for always remembering my birthday, and this is my favorite color blue. And you knew it. I am so grateful to have a friend as like generous and thoughtful as you are.
[00:15:11] Yeah. Thank you so much. You always make me feel so good. So it is. Saying what it is about the person. So it's appreciating the doer.
[00:15:19] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:15:20] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Not just the deed. So going back to the SAID of framework I is invested in, so it is feeling like there are people in this world that are invested in your success and your goals, and who will support you through setbacks.
[00:15:35] I, in the book, I talk about it being A corner man is. Is a boxing term. It's the person in the corner that is there encouraging the fighter, who is seeing around corners, who is giving tough love who believes in them and is. And for a fight for a corner man, the fighter success feels like their success.
[00:15:56] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:15:57] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: And we often in our culture our zero [00:16:00] sum culture can really beat out of us this idea of getting joy, investing in somebody else. But I will tell you that so much of my joy, the majority of my joy in my life comes from relishing and delighting in my friend's successes. That is a
[00:16:16] Lainie Rowell: yeah,
[00:16:17] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: easy way to squeeze more joy into your day.
[00:16:19] So it's allowing people to invest in you and you investing in others. Then the last letter of the said framework is D is depended on feeling relied on, depended on that. If you weren't there, you would be missed because you are an essential piece in our lives. So reminding people that you rely on them, you trust them, you depend on them, and this could be in the form of asking for help.
[00:16:47] In our hyper individualistic culture, we are often reluctant to ask for help, either because it feels like a weakness or we don't wanna burden somebody else, but I've come to see, asking for help is [00:17:00] actually a way of signaling to somebody else in my life that they matter to me. Yeah.
[00:17:05] That I value them. And so in my mind, now, asking for help isn't weak. It's an act of generosity. You are reinforcing someone's sense of mattering when you ask them for help, and you let them know that you rely on them.
[00:17:18] Lainie Rowell: Yeah, it's like a huge compliment. It's like you see value in what I do, you think it can offer something to you.
[00:17:24] So I think that advice seeking is great. I love this. Okay. So said, significant, appreciated, invested, and depended on, did I get all that right?
[00:17:33] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: You got it right.
[00:17:35] Lainie Rowell: Okay. I wanna lean into the appreciated part. One of the things that I really. Oh gosh, appreciated. Sorry. But one of the things I loved in the book is you gave very explicit examples of people who are doing important work,
[00:17:50] firefighters, teachers who don't know their impact usually as it's happening. So the example of the firefighters and this [00:18:00] is just like mind blowing to me, but the fact that these first responders are there doing this important work and then they hand off to the hospital or to someone else and they never, and I'll let you continue with that as you will, but it's also ha having, a lot of years in education.
[00:18:18] Seeing that as a real challenge with educators as well, because a lot of times, unless that kid comes back and say, here's what you did in second grade that changed my life, or Here's what you did in English that made me actually love reading. There's just, you don't know the impact. It's sometimes a little far down the road.
[00:18:36] It's happening in the moment, but you don't necessarily see it in that moment.
[00:18:41] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: One of the biggest eye openers was this idea of needing to connect to our impact. And it's not even just in our jobs, it is offering somebody a piece of advice and never knowing if they took it or if it worked right.
[00:18:55] I have people in my life who often come to me and ask me for advice, and then I never know. Did [00:19:00] the advice help them? Did they take it, did they value it? So close the loop. Let people know that their efforts, their advice to you, the energy that they're putting into you, that you appreciate it by closing the loop.
[00:19:16] Another way of closing the loop is sending a simple text to somebody saying, if it wasn't for you, dot do dot. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have had the courage to go for this job interview. Thank you for believing in me before I even believed in myself. Or if it wasn't for you, dot, do our family gatherings would not be as fun.
[00:19:36] Your humor and warmth make us feel closer together. If it wasn't for you, our department at work wouldn't feel as cohesive. You are such a critical part of the glue that keeps us together. So it is connecting people to the positive impact that they make in the world. And it's either because we are brainwashed into feeling like we [00:20:00] need to be self-reliant.
[00:20:01] And so we are reluctant to admit when others have added value to us, or that we're just too busy and going through life on autopilot, that we don't stop to reflect on the gifts that other people give us. And so what I love about mattering is that it stops you from living life on autopilot, and it forces you to be more awake.
[00:20:27] Lainie Rowell: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:29] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: To see more about. I call it I think I have this in the book I did in one version that mattering connects us to the best in ourselves and into the best in others.
[00:20:39] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:20:39] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: And it's taking a beat to recognize it out loud.
[00:20:43] Lainie Rowell: I really appreciated that you included counterfactual thinking in the book.
[00:20:47] I'm a big nerd for this practice, and so for those who are listening who are not familiar. It's on my free resources. You can read about it in Jennifer's book. It's this really, I think, very important practice.
[00:20:59] What is [00:21:00] something that was so important? And then you think of the sliding door moment. I'm, I am aging myself with a reference for a movie that's been around for a while. But if you didn't meet that person, if this thing didn't happen, like how would your life be? So it's a really good practice.
[00:21:11] I want people to check it out and I can put a link to it in the show notes, but so beautiful to really think about how we need to know our impact. And one of the things that you talk about in the book is that mattering is largely situational. So I'm thinking about, as we're talking about our impact, like your impact when you're a parent and then your kids leave home and now you're an empty nester.
[00:21:35] And so can you talk a little bit about how it's largely situational and what we can do about that?
[00:21:42] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yeah, so I write in the book a whole chapter on life transitions, things like becoming a new parent, empty nesting, moving, changing jobs, losing a job, grieving, getting divorced, all of these things can really rattle our sense of mattering.
[00:21:58] Mattering is not something you have [00:22:00] once and you put it up on your shelf like a trophy. Mattering is something that needs to be continually fed or it will erode. And when you are going through a life transition, you can suddenly lose a sense of mattering. I'll give you an example.
[00:22:15] When my husband and I got married, we moved to London and I remember feeling so lonely. And a bit ashamed of the fact that I was lonely and had I had the mattering lens, yeah, I would've been able to say to myself, oh, you are leaving your deep friendships. You just left your family. You left your job of 10 years and moved to a new country where of course you feel invisible.
[00:22:45] Of course, you don't feel valued, of course, you don't know how you're adding value. Of course, no one's depending on you or appreciating you. Of course, you don't feel significant. And instead of personalizing the loneliness, there was something wrong with me, [00:23:00] instead of putting it into greater context and saying, oh, it was actually my mattering that was taking a hit, it would've helped me recover faster.
[00:23:10] So what are the ways you can recover during a life transition? At first, I would say the first step is to recognize that you are not the first person to go through this. It can feel deeply personal and shameful, but if you can take your self-focused lens and push it out, you will see that there are other people in this world that have gone through these hard things too, and have come out the other side. So then it takes you to your next step.
[00:23:33] It is looking for role models. Those could be fictional, they could be people on podcasts. People who have gone through grief or a divorce or feeling crushed by childcare responsibilities. There are lots of podcasts and resources and stories of people who have gone through similar changes.
[00:23:52] So I would say seek out role models. Even people in your life who you can invite for a cup of coffee and say, I'd love to [00:24:00] ask how you went through this. Boy, is that a way of making somebody else feel like their experience matters? And then another tip I would give is to harness the power of invitations.
[00:24:11] What does that look like? It means there's a woman I have in the book who went through a divorce and she was talking with her therapist about how she was no longer being invited to couple, couples dinners and the therapist said to her, then you start hosting dinner parties and that shifted something in her.
[00:24:32] You can accept an invitation or you can issue an invitation, and those are easy ways of building back our sense of mattering. So I would say if you are going through a life transition that is leaving you feeling lonely and untethered to either issue an invitation, it could be a small invitation. Or accept an invitation and that is a pathway back to mattering.
[00:24:59] Lainie Rowell: [00:25:00] Those are really concrete tips. I appreciate that. And there's a through line in your book of agency, and I really wanna call this out because I could see someone hearing mattering, maybe not knowing a lot and going that's outta my hands. I can't really control if people appreciate me or I can't really control if people you know, but you were very intentional.
[00:25:23] Is my read on it that you're talking through? No. You have control, just like you gave in that very good example of if you're not getting invitations, give invitations. So could you talk a little bit more about why that is also critically important?
[00:25:37] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I'm glad you brought that up because I do think people believe that they play a passive role in their sense of mattering.
[00:25:44] And I am here to tell you, you are one action, one decision away from starting to feel like you matter again. It is if you are not feeling like you're, like you matter. It's sending that text to someone. If it wasn't for you, if you don't have someone close to you that [00:26:00] you can send that text to, walk out your front door.
[00:26:03] Go to the supermarket and thank the man or woman who is packaging your goods with a smile and giving you warmth and saying, the day has been so long, but your smile is really turning it around. Thank you for being such a positive force in the world. The fastest way to feel like we matter again is by reminding someone else why they do.
[00:26:23] And I will tell you, if you are feeling like you don't matter, I'm not saying this is easy, but what I am saying is as a human on this earth, you have a responsibility to matter again.
[00:26:38] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:26:39] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: And you, you do have agency in doing that.
[00:26:42] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:26:43] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: So I'm glad you brought it up because and I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not.
[00:26:48] I'm not saying issuing an invitation or accepting an invitation when your life feels messy is easy. But I will say that people often, and this is according to the research [00:27:00] overestimate how people will view their messy lives. There's actually research I have in the book called The Beautiful Mess Effect, which is when you are going through something messy, maybe you are grieving the loss of a best friend, and you're like, I need to get my life in order before I reach out to other friends.
[00:27:17] They can't see me messy like this. What the research finds actually is. If you do reveal some of your messy life to people, not all of it, but some of it they, the other people see you as warmer and more authentic. So the very thing you think is going to repel people is often the thing that brings people closer to you.
[00:27:38] So don't wait to have your life in perfect order. Open up a little window into your messy life and invite people in to help you put it back together.
[00:27:49] Lainie Rowell: That's really great advice and it just as you're thinking of it, I'm thinking of even just like simple examples, like you don't wanna have people over 'cause your house isn't perfectly clean.
[00:27:58] I have never walked [00:28:00] into someone's house and said this house is perfectly clean. I feel so good about myself now. If anything, I have the opposite effect. I'm like good for them, but wow, I really need to step up my game. So to, to show that humanness and that we're not perfect, that messiness that you, that beautiful messiness that you talked about is very great way to make a connection with someone.
[00:28:22] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Yes, very much. We all have messy lives. It only looks shiny on the outside. We all have messy lives, even the most polished among us because that is what it is to be human.
[00:28:34] Lainie Rowell: I'm looking at my notes and there's a lot of them, but one that stood out, , is personal policies.
[00:28:43] Share with us what personal policies are?
[00:28:45] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I wrote an article years ago for the Wall Street Journal about the importance of personal policies and the way I define them is like a company policy, like a simple
[00:28:54] guideline, a simple set of rules that you set up in your life of the things you do [00:29:00] and things that you don't do. And so you know, a personal policy could be, I do not take work calls on the weekends because that is my time with my family. My husband has a personal policy. He does not do red eyes.
[00:29:14] Because it messes him up for two or three days after. So that is a personal policy he has. I have a personal policy that I just started since researching this book on mattering. I have two personal policies. The first personal policy is, and this is a practice that I have had to really practice, but now I'm good at it, is that I wake up every morning
[00:29:36] and I say to myself, I have three teenagers. I say to myself, what is one need that I have that needs to be met today?
[00:29:47] So that I can show up and be my best self. What is one 'cause I used to always put my needs last. They didn't even appear on the list most days. But now I, and it's not narcissistic.
[00:29:59] [00:30:00] My needs come first. It's one need that makes me feel like I matter to myself.
[00:30:06] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:30:06] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: So I have learned how to have a personal policy where every day I have to do something that affirms the fact that I matter to myself.
[00:30:15] So that is one thing I do. Another thing I don't do is... I have a personal policy that I don't cancel plans unless I'm sick.
[00:30:26] And so I will tell you that one personal policy has deepened my friendships because people know that I show up. And unless I am sick, I show up. So there is trust in the relationship. My friends feel significant and prioritized because I do prioritize them. It also makes me be careful about the commitments I accept.
[00:30:52] Because I don't wanna cancel on people. So I look at my calendar and I say this is too many nights out, away from my kids in a row [00:31:00] so I can't accept that. And I really I try to be very thoughtful about what I accept on my calendar and what I don't, because when I accept it, people feel like a priority.
[00:31:10] And I'll tell you that boundary does not turn people off. It makes people trust you. They know you wanna be with them. Yeah. And if you can't pull it off, you just say, I am so sorry, I cannot pull that off this week. Let's try to find another time.
[00:31:24] Lainie Rowell: Yeah. I think it's a great concept. It especially ties to when we were talking about mattering too much, the people who are burning out, the caregivers, the educators, the families, whoever it is.
[00:31:36] And that's just, there's obviously a lot of ways we can. We can be mattering too much and we really do need to protect ourselves in that way. And I like the personal policies. I think that's a good one.
[00:31:47] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Thank you.
[00:31:47] And to, to talk about the mattering too much, a little bit more, the idea of mattering too much is that it's not a true sense of mattering.
[00:31:55] So a true sense of mattering, the kind of mattering that allows us to [00:32:00] thrive is when we balance our own needs with the needs of others.
[00:32:05] Lainie Rowell: Yes.
[00:32:05] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: When we balance mattering to ourselves and mattering to others so in our heads we have to think about how can we each day, each week, and it's not gonna be perfect.
[00:32:18] As we talked about, we have messy lives. It's not gonna be perfectly balanced every day or even every week, but it's keeping an eye on the scale and saying, where am I?... And particularly for women, and particularly for caregivers... where am I on the scale of mattering? Am I mattering to myself?
[00:32:34] And here's if you're somebody that maybe is on the opposite spectrum, maybe it isn't that you don't feel like you matter too much, but you wonder if you actually do matter, I have found this two question litmus test can help
[00:32:50] pinpoint why, maybe you feel like you don't matter. So the first question is do I have people in my life, one or two or three [00:33:00] people who know me intimately for who I am at my core, who value me for my true self?
[00:33:07] Number one, do I feel valued for who I am at my core, truly? And two, do I add value to the world around me, even in small ways?
[00:33:18] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:33:19] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: So if you can answer yes to those two litmus tests, then that is how you connect to your impact. If you don't feel like you have people in your life who know you that is an area that you should be leaning into and working on.
[00:33:35] If you question whether you're adding value anymore there is great advice in the book from a woman I got about how to connect to your impact through an impact file. So we go through the world with what researchers call a negativity bias.
[00:33:50] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:33:50] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Where the negative parts of our lives, the things that go wrong, the times when we don't matter, stick to us.
[00:33:58] Whereas the ways that we [00:34:00] do matter, the positive things we do slide off and that's given to us that negativity bias was a protective shield to our earliest ancestors because people who were able to remember the negativity knew which, berries were poisonous or which cave had the bears or whatever it is.
[00:34:18] So we need to understand that we have a negativity bias that we come by that honestly, and the way to override it is to create this little impact file. It could be thank you notes that people have written to you. It could be texts of appreciation, it could be, in the workplace if somebody writes a memo thanking you.
[00:34:36] Saving all of those things for the days when you feel like you're mattering is really a little lacking to go back to that impact file and say, oh, I see where my impact is. I see what I'm doing.
[00:34:47] Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I think the kids would say, keep the receipts. Keep the receipt, the receipts.
[00:34:51] Keep receipts. I love that.
[00:34:53] All right. I know I gotta let you go here soon, Jennifer, but one question I would love to ask you is if there [00:35:00] was one thing that you can't share enough or you haven't had a chance to share, like I call it the thing you'd shout from the rooftops, like this is so important. If there was only one thing people could hear from you, what would that be?
[00:35:15] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: It's a challenge that I give to myself and I don't always meet it to be clear, but I, it's a, it's what I try to do and how I try to live my life. And it's this to imagine everyone you meet, strangers, colleagues, friends, acquaintances, wearing a sign around their neck that says, tell me do I matter?
[00:35:40] And you can answer that with a warm smile. With warm energy. You don't even have to say words. Just greeting people meeting that need. Even in a small way, if we all did that, if we all gave each other the benefit of the doubt.
[00:35:57] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:35:57] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: If we all looked at people who were [00:36:00] acting out with compassion rather than judgment and looking at it as, ah, they have this unmet need to matter and trying as best we can to go through the world Again, it's not gonna happen every day. It's not gonna happen every hour, but to make the intention to try to go through the world. Unlocking each other's sense of mattering, pointing out what it is that is magical about them pointing out that they are worthy, that they are worthy of a smile, they are worthy of your kindness.
[00:36:30] So I would say that, and I would say the other side of that is to be careful when we are going through the world and leaving unintentional messages to people that they don't matter. Not making eye contact being rude, being rushed, being uncivil, all of these things, incivility is a really rampant issue in our culture today.
[00:36:53] So to be mindful of the mattering energy you're putting out there and make it positive, and if you're. [00:37:00] If it's negative, really try your best not to what I say with my kids sometimes with their emotions is don't bleed out.
[00:37:07] Lainie Rowell: Yeah.
[00:37:07] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: You have your emotion. You could say it to me, but don't let it bleed out into the world so you're ruining other, impacting other people.
[00:37:14] So think about that.
[00:37:15] Lainie Rowell: Yeah. 'cause it is contagious and we do wanna try and we don't wanna be radiating that. Jennifer, I know people are gonna wanna connect with you after this.
[00:37:23] What is the best way?.. Obviously they need to grab a copy of mattering the secret to a life of deep connection and purpose. What are other ways they can connect with you and your brilliance?
[00:37:33] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Oh, that's so sweet.
[00:37:34] So you can follow me on Instagram @JenniferBrehenyWallace, where I try to give tips every day on how to build up a sense of mattering in ourselves and in others. You can sign up for my newsletter at JenniferBWallace.com where I offer more tips or see me on LinkedIn.
[00:37:50] Lainie Rowell: Those are all great ways to connect.
[00:37:52] I'll make sure they're in the show notes and in the article. And Jennifer, I have truly loved this time. You've given us a lot to think about. So [00:38:00] thank you for being here. And thank you all for listening.
[00:38:03] Jennifer Breheny Wallace: Thank you so much.
[00:38:04] If you're grateful for this episode, please be sure to subscribe today. And if you're feeling really thankful, please submit a review and share with others so they know the value. One last thing, please connect on social media using the hashtag EvolvingWithGratitude to share your gratitude stories.