Shownotes:
What does it really mean to feel loved?
In this conversation with Sonja Lyubomirsky, we explore why being loved isn’t the same as feeling loved, how changing the conversation can shift a relationship, and why loneliness is a moment, not an identity.
This one will change how you think about connection.
Thrive Global Article: Sonja Lyubomirsky on How to Feel Loved
About Our Guest:
Sonja Lyubomirsky is Distinguished Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Riverside and author of the best-selling The How of Happiness and The Myths of Happiness (published in 39 countries). Lyubomirsky and her research on the science of happiness have been the recipients of many grants and honors, including Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), an Honorary Doctorate from the University of Basel, the Diener Award for Outstanding Midcareer Contributions in Personality Psychology, the Christopher Peterson Gold Medal, and a Positive Psychology Prize. She lives in Santa Monica, California, with her family.
About Lainie:
Lainie Rowell is a bestselling author, award-winning educator, and TEDx speaker. She is dedicated to human flourishing, focusing on community building, emotional intelligence, and honoring what makes each of us unique and dynamic through learner-driven design. She earned her degree in psychology and went on to earn both a post-graduate credential and a master's degree in education. An international keynote speaker, Lainie has presented in 41 states as well as in dozens of countries across 4 continents. As a consultant, Lainie’s client list ranges from Fortune 100 companies like Apple and Google to school districts and independent schools. Learn more at linktr.ee/lainierowell.
Website - LainieRowell.com
Instagram - @LainieRowell
LinkedIn - @LainieRowell
X/Twitter - @LainieRowell
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Sonja Lyubomirsky: If you wanna feel more loved, you need to make the other person feel more loved. Show genuine curiosity in them. Ask them questions about their inner life and their inner world and what they're thinking and feeling and doing.
[00:00:10] And even if it's like the minor details of their life . We all kind of want to be seen and heard and known, right? Research shows that we kind of hesitate to ask deep questions 'cause we think we'll be sort of prying or nosy, you know, or personal and, and yet actually on average, people want to be asked those questions, right? Cause you really do feel loved when the other person is like really interested in you, right? When was the last time someone showed genuine curiosity in you, right? Like you're telling a story and they just couldn't wait for you to hear. They're so excited to hear it, right?
[00:00:40] That's, it's actually pretty rare.
[00:00:41] Welcome to the Evolving With Gratitude podcast. I'm your host, Lainie Rowell. I'm an author and speaker, and I'm here to help you optimize happiness, relationships, and performance.
[00:00:53] Lainie Rowell: We chase happiness through achievement, through better circumstances, through checking the right boxes. But what if happiness hinges [00:01:00] on something quieter and more relational than any of that? Dr. Sonya Lyubomirsky has spent 36 years as a happiness scientist pioneering research on gratitude, kindness, optimism, and human flourishing.
[00:01:13] Her latest book, How to Feel Loved written with relationship scientist Harry Reis distills a finding that emerged across decades of research. As Sonya puts it, almost everything we do to become happier works because it helps us feel more connected and loved. The key to happiness, it turns out, is not just being loved.
[00:01:33] It's feeling loved. Here's Sonya.
[00:01:36] Welcome Sonya and thank you for giving me permission to call you Sonya. So happy for you to be here.
[00:01:41] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Happy to be here. And I, I love having these conversations. Actually, my research is about how conversations make people happy. So it's, um, it's very, it's, it's, it's all very related.
[00:01:50] Lainie Rowell: Your work is very important to me.
[00:01:52] I have followed it for a very long time. I can't wait to, to get into so many of the things. And in particular, let's start it [00:02:00] off with the very latest. I have a copy of it right here for those who are watching How to Feel Loved. And I'd just love to hear from you, you know, why this book, your first co-author book, by the way.
[00:02:12] So tell us, tell us how this all got started.
[00:02:14] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. Um, I guess I'll start with happiness interventions, which is what I've been doing for the last, like 27 years. I've been a happiness scientist for 36 years , and so in 1998, , my lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions, which are basically like clinical trials.
[00:02:32] But instead of testing, um, you know, a medication or a vaccine, you know, we're testing a happiness practice like gratitude. You're interested in Gratitude. So, so for example, we've done tons of studies where we randomly assigned some people to write gratitude letters. Other people might write other kinds of letters or do something neutral, right?
[00:02:47] And then we see who gets happier. Um, and so what I found after all these years of doing these interventions on gratitude, on kindness, acting, social, being optimistic, is that almost all of [00:03:00] the interventions that work to make us happier, the reason they work is they make us feel more connected to and loved by others.
[00:03:07] Right? So when I write a gratitude letter to my mom, it makes me feel more loved by her, right? I. When I do an act of kindness for a colleague, it makes me feel, um, closer to that colleague. Right. And so really, I mean, it sounds like a cliche and it is kind of a cliche, right? That it's that the key to happiness is feeling connected and loved.
[00:03:27] Yeah. And, and then I start talking to Harry Reis, who's my co-author, and he's a prominent relationship scientist for decades. I think he's been studying it for like 49 years. Um, and then we realized. You know, happiness scientists and and love scientists don't really talk to each other very much, and we should talk to each other more.
[00:03:45] And, and this is where the idea for this book came, came from. And it really took us seven years to write it and to like, and finally, it, it all kind of clicked, right? So this idea of like, the key to happiness is feeling loved. And this is what we can do to feel more loved in our [00:04:00] lives. So yeah, that, that's where it started.
[00:04:03] Lainie Rowell: I think it's beautiful, this connection between happiness, well, I just said the word connection. Now I'm gonna say it again. Happiness and connection. And I do see that as such a thread throughout your work is yes, happiness, but happiness through connection. And so this is a very natural, uh, reason to have a co-author as someone who focuses on relationships just like you do.
[00:04:26] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. And, and I actually, I gave a, my first, um, main stage TED talk recently and I have a slide, um, my daughter helped me create, and basically it says to, I realized that to become a better happiness scientist, I had to become a love scientist, right? So like.
[00:04:42] Really to study love and get feeling loved, right? Because a lot of us are loved, but we don't necessarily feel loved, right? So that's one of the sort of themes in the book is sort of how, how to feel more loved. Um, and, and it all involves lots of strategies that we, that we've been studying, you know, as happiness researchers.
[00:04:59] Lainie Rowell: And to [00:05:00] be explicit, this book is not just about romantic love, correct?
[00:05:04] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Oh, absolutely. Well, yeah. Yeah. I should make it very, very clear. Yeah. It's, um, I mean, there's a heart on the, on the cover. Um. But it's, um, we define love very broadly, right? So love is sort of this bonded, warm feelings, you know, that you have with, with someone that whom you wish to be happy and with whom your goals are often intertwined.
[00:05:20] Um, and so this could be love with, of a colleague. Actually, we don't use the word love, uh, often enough. I think in the workplace, you know, love, we could have love in the workplace, love of our, of course, family members, uh, friends, you know, I, I tell my friends I love them all the time. In fact, my kids often get confused because I'll be on the phone.
[00:05:37] I'll be like, I love you so much. And they're like, who? Mom? Who are you talking to? I'm like, oh, I'm talking to my friend. So and so. Um, so yeah, we, we define love very broadly.
[00:05:47] Lainie Rowell: I think it is a very powerful concept, the idea of actually expressing love in the workplace and because we feel like we're so constrained.
[00:05:58] Like what if HR gets involved? I [00:06:00] mean, but yeah. Right. As I've gotten older, I started saying it more to my friends. I love you. Okay, love you. And just really trying to be, yeah less stingy with it because I don't know why I'm holding back on it. It just
[00:06:12] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Exactly. I actually had an experience just recently because a lot of my friends, we say I love each each other all the time, but then I have other friends who I haven't really done that with.
[00:06:20] Right. Maybe they're kind of more professional colleagues. And then I had a friend, we had this great dinner and then she was leaving and I thought, like, I'm gonna say I love you. And I remember even like hesitating, like in my mind, thinking, should I, should I go for it? And I did. And then she looked at me and she said, I love you too.
[00:06:36] And it was just a beautiful moment. Um, and yeah, it just makes me think, I think, I think people wanna hear, there's a lot of research like this where like we kind of hesitate to do a lot of things. My, my favorite is about compliments that, you know. Most of the time, what is it something like, you know, most of the time when we think of a compliment to give, we don't actually give it.
[00:06:54] Um, yeah. And, and we think, oh, maybe it'll be a little bit awkward or uncomfortable. And yet people love compliments. [00:07:00] Right. Especially, I mean, authentic compliments of course. So, do more compliments. Another re uh, research line I love is like. We we're, we're hesitate to reach out to old friends or old colleagues or old friends we, who haven't heard from us in a while. We think, oh, maybe it'll be a little awkward. Or, you know, why are they reaching out? And yet on average, people love to hear from, from you, you know, even after a long time.
[00:07:21] Lainie Rowell: And I think that's part of, there's really two parts to the book, right? It's about thinking differently and approaching differently.
[00:07:29] And that's what we're really talking about here, even, right? Even just in saying, I love you to friends. It's thinking differently about it. And approaching the conversation differently. Is that fair to say?
[00:07:39] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah, exactly. Like one, I think a book is really empowering because it's about if you don't feel loved in at least one of your relationships, and people tell us, I mean, at least 70% will say, and I think actually the number is even higher.
[00:07:51] In our surveys, at least 70% say there's at least one relationship in my life that I want to feel more loved by or more loved in. But people think, oh, like, how do I do [00:08:00] that? Like, you know, it seems very hard, right? Like, do I make myself more lovable? Right? Maybe I need to sort of show the other person how wonderful I am, or do I need to change the other person somehow, like get them to love me more? Um, and that seems overwhelming and doesn't seem very controllable. And the message of our book is really pretty empowering, which is that if you wanna feel more loved. You don't need to change yourself.
[00:08:23] I mean, of course it's always good to work on yourself, so, but, uh, you don't need to change the other person. What you do, what you need is to change the conversation and you can think of a relationship as a series of conversations, right? So you change the conversation and the first step is really make the other person feel more loved first, right?
[00:08:42] Which is really under your control. Um, so anyway, yeah. So you're absolutely right what you just said. It's really, really controllable, like what you can do.
[00:08:48] Lainie Rowell: And that's very empowering. We have agency. Yeah. I often think the best way to change someone else's behavior is to change my own behavior first, and not that I'm trying to manipulate 'em or anything like that.
[00:08:58] Mm-hmm. And that also takes me to a [00:09:00] concept in the book, feeling loved versus being loved, and that's not exactly the same thing. So can you talk, talk us through Yeah. Why that distinction matters.
[00:09:10] Sonja Lyubomirsky: A lot of us are like, like we know we are loved, so maybe it's our partner or our child or family member, um, friend.
[00:09:17] Like we know that they love us, but we somehow don't feel loved. And um, I actually was just thinking the other day, I think there's something good about just the awareness that they love us, but feeling loved is really like one way to think about, it's like, like there's a cup of love. Okay. So I have actually, I have this little vase here. So imagine we all have this sort of cup of love, and I know say my, romantic partner loves me, but I'm not feeling as loved as I want to be. So maybe he's showing love, expressing that love to me. And it's, it's filling my cup of love, but maybe I have a leak at the bottom and it's somehow leaking out.
[00:09:51] Right? So that, that's, that might be true for some people. Or maybe I, I don't have much of an opening at the top, so it's kind of not really getting in. So that's another way to think about it that could happen. I [00:10:00] think that's, that's fairly common that, that we don't sort of feel as loved, uh, as we want.
[00:10:03] And, and one, one thing that we argue is that. You can't really feel loved if you're not truly known by the other person. If you have a wall around you, which we all do, and we have these walls to protect ourselves so they serve a function. But if I have a wall around me and like you don't really know me, I'll always wonder I
[00:10:22] would you still love me if you really knew me? Right? So like, we need, so one of the, one of the insights of the book is to feel loved, but you need to be known and also really, truly know the other. So we have to kind of take down our walls a little bit. So, uh, which is not easy to do, but you know, there's, there's strategies for that.
[00:10:39] Lainie Rowell: And so what is like a strategy for that? What's a good practical thing that we could do to kind of take down those walls and really be known by other people so that we do feel loved?
[00:10:51] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. And that's really, that's really what our book is about is we need to be known and know the other, right?
[00:10:56] So the first step, if you wanna feel more loved, the first step is a little bit [00:11:00] counterintuitive. If you wanna feel more loved, you need to make the other person feel more loved. Um. The first step is really to show genuine curiosity in them and to really like, really like to ask them questions about their inner life and their inner world and what they're thinking and feeling and doing.
[00:11:16] And even if it's like the minor details of their life, you know, we all kind of want to be seen and heard and known, right? Like this research that shows that we kind of hesitate to ask deep questions 'cause we think we'll be sort of prying or nosy, you know, or personal and, and yet actually. On average, people want to be asked those questions, right?
[00:11:34] So show curiosity in the other person, make them feel 'cause you really do feel loved when the other person is like really interested in you, right? When was the last time someone showed genuine curiosity in you? Right? Like you're telling a story and they just couldn't wait for you to hear. They're so excited to hear it, right?
[00:11:51] That's, it's actually pretty rare. Um, but it's, yeah, it's so compelling and powerful. And then, and then let's say, let's say I'm showing curiosity in you so you start to tell a little bit more about [00:12:00] yourself, about your story, something that's going on with you. And then I truly listen.
[00:12:03] So that's the second step is to listen and we, we talk about these mindsets to embrace, to make other people feel loved. And one of them we call listening to learn. Mm-hmm. And the reason is that most of us are not very good listeners, including me. I'm not a very good listener. I'm more of a talker. But we, the idea is that approach your next conversation as a listener, not a talker.
[00:12:23] And 'cause most of us are sort of listening to respond, right. We're kind of mentally rehearsing. What we're gonna say, right? Um, which is, which creates this sort of inner chatter that is interfering, that interferes with our responses, right? With our listening. So, so the idea is that you listen to learn, like, listen, like there's gonna be a quiz tomorrow, what they have to say.
[00:12:42] So you really, truly listen. So again, you show curiosity, you ask questions. Then they start telling the story. They're opening up. You help them open up, right? Lower their walls so you can know them better. You know them better. And then, yeah, you truly listen. You ask questions. Um, and then they'll open up more.
[00:12:58] And then the idea is [00:13:00] they'll reciprocate. And reciprocity is one of the, the strongest sort of rules or norms of social behavior, right? Like, it's very hard not to reciprocate. Sometimes it happens. And so the, the idea is that the other person will reciprocate and they'll show curiosity in me, in my story, right?
[00:13:16] And listen, and then help me open up, you know, so then I am able to take down my wall. So we kind of take turns, you know, sharing and listening and showing curiosity, you know, with warmth. And acceptance. So, um, yeah, so that's, that's really it it sounds kind of simplistic almost, but that's really, that's really it.
[00:13:33] Lainie Rowell: Well, maybe simplistic but not intuitive. Mm-hmm. Or at least not natural. Yeah. It's, it's not something we do by default. At times it's part of the social contract, but we're talking, you're talking about deeper than just the social contract.
[00:13:48] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. When you think about like a first time you meet someone that's actually easier to, to understand, like imagine you're, you're going on a first date or you're meeting a professional colleague, you know, for the first time you're having lunch.
[00:13:58] What do we do on those sort of [00:14:00] first impressions? Like usually we, we wanna impress each other, right? I want you to think that I'm kind and interesting and smart and funny, right? And so we're trying to impress each other, which means we're only showing just like this little tip of our, you know, of ourselves, not our whole selves.
[00:14:16] And I might succeed in impressing you or the first date, but it's not gonna forge a connection, right? It forges a connection when you really. It's like you break the fourth wall and you sort of show something a little deeper. It doesn't have to be negative. I mean, it can be, it could be something vulnerable.
[00:14:30] Um, it could be like te you know, saying your true opinion about something, you know, what you're really thinking about lately. A little bit more than just sort of trying to impress the other person.
[00:14:39] Lainie Rowell: So my hack for this, and tell me if you have a different one. I love the Arthur Aaron questions and, you know, they, they went viral because of the New York Times Article 36 Questions to Love.
[00:14:51] But I do actually keep those questions handy. And when I'm with people and I, I'm not like taking it out like it's a checklist. Like, okay, here's question one. [00:15:00] But those questions were designed to get, you know, a little bit beneath the surface and they, so is there a tool that you recommend?
[00:15:08] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah, I, by the way, and I think asking questions. In fact, my, my lab is gonna do some studies on, on question asking, I think asking questions is so important. I, I think it's sort of underestimated. Of course, you don't wanna ask questions like you're an interrogator, right? Yeah. Like you just doing an interview, but, and you, you, there has to be sort of this back and forth, but, but we don't ask enough, right?
[00:15:25] Like deep questions and has to, the pace has to be right. And those, those art errand questions, they're paced just right, right. You start with kind, you start small. Um, and um, my favorite tool is actually a card. You know, they, all these card decks now you can buy. Um, and, and, and by, I don't represent them, I don't make money from 'em or anything, but I just, I just love them.
[00:15:44] They're called the, and like A-N-D and they're, it is just, and they have them for, for strangers, for, for clothes wants. And the, the questions are so good. Um, so actually when I give talks, I'll often show some of them. And, um, I mean, and there're things like, I mean, [00:16:00] some of them are like, um. You know, what's the, what's the biggest, what's the best failure you've ever had?
[00:16:05] Kind of a failure, you've, mm-hmm. You've gone through, or like what family member really surprised you this year, I remember is one of them. And actually the most vulnerable question for like, uh, couples or people who know each other well. Um, this is an amazing question. It's. Ask me something that you're afraid to ask me.
[00:16:22] Lainie Rowell: Ooh, that goes deep fast, doesn't it?
[00:16:24] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Isn't that ama, I mean, obviously that would be like the last one, and I, I, yeah. But like, amazing isn't that, or like, what do you really think of me? I mean, or what do you think other people think of like, just, you know, what are three words that other people might use to describe me?
[00:16:38] Um, anyway, so there's lots of questions that they go from like. You know, less deep to deeper. I think asking questions again, it's, it is really important 'cause it gets you talking again at the right pace. We have to read the room, right? Uhhuh, we have to have some emotional intelligence.
[00:16:53] Which is hard to teach, right? It's like you have to gauge the other person, you know, how, you know, where are they, are they gonna be revealing [00:17:00] something, you know? Or, and when, when and when you are sharing too. Gauge their curiosity. Like, 'cause sometimes you're sharing and they're just like, they look like they're listening, but they're not really interested.
[00:17:09] Right. Um, and so we have to use our emotional intelligence, um, constantly work on your emotional intelligence, I guess I would say to everyone. Um.
[00:17:17] Lainie Rowell: Yeah, I love the, I love all the mindsets. Radical curiosity and listen to learn are so essential and really need to be a part of our everyday lives. And I think about, you know, if you're doing a meeting, there's kind of always this awkward, like people either coming into a physical space together or either on a zoom like we're on today.
[00:17:38] You know, if there's like a question that people can respond to in the chat or that they can just kinda have a little, so they're not like, oh, cold weather today, huh? Like, I mean, we're just all so tired of the, that kind of simple.
[00:17:53] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Exactly. And but then you don't wanna just go really deep and, and then it seems a little bit like artificial, right?
[00:17:58] There was a, a while where I was [00:18:00] going a lot of first dates, and I just found them so boring, you know? And, um, and so I, I started saying like, okay, like, I like to ask some, you know, like. Some interesting questions at the beginning and people usually are like, great, you know, 'cause like it's always a little bit awkward, right?
[00:18:13] Um, and so yeah, it could just be like, what's been on your mind a lot lately, what you've been thinking a lot about lately. And sometimes people will say really deep things and really vulnerable things. Um, and, and sometimes, you know, it might be something, you know, kind of neutral, but that's fine. You know?
[00:18:29] Um, that's how you kind of gauge. Um, so yeah, like what's, you know, yeah, yeah. Like something that made you happy recently. Something that said recently. Um, it doesn't have to be, as I said, like, 'cause one of the Art Aaron questions is like, when was the last time you cried?
[00:18:42] Lainie Rowell: I know. Yeah. I think that's, and that, that might be a level two question.
[00:18:47] So
[00:18:48] Sonja Lyubomirsky: it depends on the person. Again, you have to kind of read the person Yeah. And sort of gauge, um, I guess, yeah. In fact, I, I, I'm still working on how to. You know how to introduce that first question again. I'll, I'll, I'll just, I'll [00:19:00] sometimes I'll say like, oh, you know what, I'm, I'm kind of done with small talk.
[00:19:03] I don't like small talk. I love to. Yeah. You know, get right into like, can I ask you some questions? And, and usually people are like game.
[00:19:08] Lainie Rowell: We have a box of questions on our dining room table for family dinners. Yeah. And that way. It's kind of just sometimes they're tired at the end of the day, you know how kids are.
[00:19:18] How was your day at school? Good. So we have those questions and I've used them in classrooms with kids and things like that. So I do think having the questions is like a good tool to have in your toolkit.
[00:19:28] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Totally.
[00:19:29] Lainie Rowell: Because you just, I, I go blank every time when I'm trying to do it from memory. Okay. So we've talked about outta the five mindsets for feeling loved.
[00:19:36] We've talked about radical curiosity, listening to learn. Is there another one top of mind that you're like, we really should...
[00:19:43] Sonja Lyubomirsky: sure, sure, sure. One of my favorites is called Multiplicity.
[00:19:46] Um, and um, it actually comes from trauma research, sort of an idea that if you have a trauma, it doesn't define you. So multiplicity is this idea that we're all multitude, that, that we're like a, a quilt of both positive and negative [00:20:00] qualities, right? So, and we know this, but we have to kind of remind ourselves.
[00:20:04] Um, so I'm generous at times, but sometimes I'm selfish and sometimes I'm loyal, and sometimes I'm narcissistic and we're all like that and to sort of re recognize that we're all this kind of quilt of many things, and that one behavior or one trait doesn't necessarily define us, right?
[00:20:21] So when you're having that conversation and you're asking those questions and the person opens up. 'cause again, the key is to really getting to know another person and them to get to know you. So, and maybe they open up about something that's a little uncomfortable or maybe not attractive about them.
[00:20:36] Um, how do you respond? Right. This is a really hard one. I think most of us are kind of inherently judgmental. You could argue it's like, it's a, it's a evolutionarily adaptive for humans to be judgmental. Right. We wanna know like, who's our friend, who's our enemy, right. Um. Who should we stay close to or stay far away from?
[00:20:53] So you have to kind of take a breath and see the person in their, their messy complexity, right? That we all [00:21:00] we're complicated, we're contradictory. We have sort of both good and bad sides. Um, not just, and other people, but ourselves too.
[00:21:06] So that's, that's really one of my favorite, um, mindsets to, to really where you can help you accept and recognize people for their sort of full humanity. Now, once in a while you might hear something and. You decide you don't wanna really like hang out with that person anymore. That's okay. That's, that might happen.
[00:21:21] By the way, understanding someone's bad behavior doesn't mean that you accept or condone it or justify it, right?
[00:21:28] Lainie Rowell: Yeah. But that appreciation, that we're all unique and dynamic, that we ourselves are unique and dynamic and that others are unique and dynamic, I think helps us get away from that. Well, they're just bad or they're just good. Right? Yeah. So we, we need that,
[00:21:42] Sonja Lyubomirsky: That black and white thinking. Yeah. Um, it really helps. I feel like as I get older, it's easier for me to, to be, it's so funny, actually, one of my daughters was just telling me the other, she's like, mom, you're so judgmental.
[00:21:53] I'm like, really? Like, I feel like I'm actually a lot less judgmental than, you know, with age or than some other people. I guess she was [00:22:00] seeing something. Um, but kids will tell you, right? Like sort of these be very honest with you. Um, but yeah. Yeah. Often has have the experience where someone will say, can you believe that guy did that?
[00:22:10] You know, and I'm like, and I do first I'm like, oh, I can't believe they did. And then I kind of like start to see, like, try to put a wider lens on it and I'll often see like the little boy in inside the guy who like maybe used to be really insecure or threatened and which kind of made him, I don't, again, it's not an excuse, but it's sort of an understanding of like what got him to, to do that thing.
[00:22:34] Lainie Rowell: So yeah, that it was that moment in time and not necessarily an indictment on how that person is for all of time. Speaking of how kind of we're unique and dynamic, could you talk a little bit about. Lonely moments versus lonely as an identity.
[00:22:54] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah, sure, sure. And by the way, feeling loved.
[00:22:56] Right? Again, the book is called How to Feel Loved. I think it's very much related to [00:23:00] loneliness, like not feeling loved. So I think you could even argue that that's kind of a core, , characteristic of people who are lonely is they, they're not feeling loved. And, but the point we make in the book, well couple a couple of points.
[00:23:11] One is that loneliness, a feeling of loneliness is a signal, right? That like a social bond needs to be repaired. And it's a really important evolutionarily adaptive signal. You can imagine, you know, in our ancestral times, right? If you're lonely, you could, you may, you might die actually, like you may not survive, right?
[00:23:28] You don't have the alliance or the tribe to help you. You might not mate and reproduce. Um, and so that's why today. That those lonely moments feel almost like you're dying. Right? Like, 'cause, because in the past they really were like a, that threatening that aversive. So it's good that we are so that it feels bad.
[00:23:46] Like, 'cause that's, it's a signal that we need to repair and we need to do something to sort of feel less lonely. But, and that's one point we make. And the second point we make in the book is that like, to think about loneliness or not feeling loved as a moment, as something that's [00:24:00] fleeting in time is like to, to redefine it as like.
[00:24:03] I'm having a lonely moment right now, right? Like, I'm not feeling loved right now. Right this moment. I am not feeling loved. That's okay. So, and then it, and it's really, it's, I think it's important to state it that way and to think of it as like, this is a moment. And that could change. And maybe in another moment I might feel more loved, I might feel less lonely.
[00:24:21] Although, as opposed to defining it in yourself as like, I'm a lonely person. I'm the kind of person who doesn't feel loved because then it's part of your identity, then it's something that's sort of permanent. It's something that's sort of everywhere, you know. So, um, so I really, I really like that kind of reconceptualization.
[00:24:37] Lainie Rowell: It's like embracing the impermanence. It's just with us right this moment. Yeah. But it won't be forever.
[00:24:44] Sonja Lyubomirsky: So it won't be forever. Yeah.
[00:24:45] Lainie Rowell: And, and by the way, you did a really good segue that I failed to do. Yeah. So thank you for fixing that for me because my mind jumped to something and you, you made it much smoother.
[00:24:53] So thank you for that. I do wanna talk about Gratitude as we've talked about [00:25:00] reciprocity in, you know, how to feel loved and I mean, I'm a big nerd for Gratitude. I've been studying writing and talking about it for years now, and I just would love for you to share kind of like what do you think people need to know about gratitude and feel free to connect it to how to feel loved.
[00:25:20] Sonja Lyubomirsky: I love studying Gratitude. I think it's such a rich state and emotion and traits is an emotion. It's a state and a trait. There's so much to say about it. So one thing to say is I think gratitude is an antidote to taking things for granted. It's almost like the opposite of taking things for granted.
[00:25:37] And, and we humans, you know, we tend to, we accomplish something, we like get a new car or bag or house and job, you know, and then we relationship even, and then we start taking it for granted, right? We sort of get used to it. It's called hedonic adaptation. My second book. The Myths of Happiness was really about this.
[00:25:53] Um, and so Gratitude is really a very powerful antidote to taking things for granted, right? [00:26:00] Because when you're grateful, when you're truly grateful for what you have, your health, your relationship, you know, you know anything, um, uh, yeah, it, it helps you for not, not taking things for granted. Actually was, um, uh, talk to someone recently who, who had these really amazing stories about how he once had did this like basic training as part of the military where he was so cold and like, it was so awful that he, every single night, he still thinks I'm so happy to be in this comfortable bed and to not be there. Yeah. Amazing. Most of us just don't, um, yeah. Like it's hard to maintain that.
[00:26:33] Right. My first daughter, when, um, when she was like two or three, I put her in preschool, which is a, a block away, and I would drop her off at preschool and she would scream and scream and she just was so awful. And none of the other kids were screaming maybe the first day or two.
[00:26:46] Right. But then. She was the only one, um, out of like 20. And I, it was so awful for me as a first time mom. Um, and I remember just walking home like every day crying, and um, there was a kid on my block [00:27:00] who was maybe 17, who was severely disabled and autistic, and he was sort of walking around the block.
[00:27:06] And I just remember sometimes like seeing him and thinking, oh, I have so much to be grateful for. Like, she's healthy, yes, she's having trouble adjusting to preschool, obviously, or maybe she has other issues. But, um, and it, it really helped me and, and, and then once in a while, I would remember that now I don't think it's a great recipe for happiness is sort of to remind yourself, oh, if someone else is much worse than you.
[00:27:25] But that is really what Gratitude a lot of is, is about, is sort of, subtracting it. Like, I might not have this, like I might not have the help. So it's hard, it's hard work. So again, that's my other point is that Gratitude really has to be intentional and deliberate and takes effort.
[00:27:39] It, yes, it could become a habit. But if it's too much of a habit, then you don't really notice it. So you really needs to be kind of like almost refreshed, uh, on a constant basis. It's like you make a decision every day, um, to be grateful. Another point I wanted to make up Gratitude is that, um, Gratitude also is, is sometimes can feel unpleasant, right?
[00:27:57] So, yeah, we've done some studies that show [00:28:00] that when you're grateful, you feel more connected. Like, I feel connected to my mom when I'm grateful to her. Right. You feel elevated and inspired. Like, 'cause I, when I'm grateful. For say, my teachers, I'm inspired to sort of do better. Right? To prove, to make them proud.
[00:28:12] Um, but it also can humble you, right? 'cause it makes you realize like, my happiness and success isn't just about me. It's actually all these people who've helped me. Yeah. I think humility is a good thing, but it can feel a little bit unpleasant. Um, it can also make you feel indebted and you know, in some languages the word grateful is the same as the word indebted.
[00:28:32] Is that interesting?
[00:28:33] Lainie Rowell: That is. I've never heard that before. That's fascinating.
[00:28:36] Sonja Lyubomirsky: It's so interesting and it makes sense because they're very related, right? So when you're grateful to someone. It, it often makes you feel indebted to them, like, because maybe they've done something for you, they've supported you, then you feel like you wanna, reciprocity is a really powerful social norm.
[00:28:50] Um, and so, so that's something to think about too. I think those aren't kind of quote unpleasant feelings of humility sometimes. And indebtedness actually are good for us, [00:29:00] um, just because they feel a little bit unpleasant 'cause they motivate us, right? Yeah. So indebtedness makes, motivate me to pay back or to pay it forward.
[00:29:07] Lainie Rowell: I tend to distinguish between habits and rituals, so I try and think about what are the Gratitude rituals that can be a part of my life, because I don't want to get, to me a habit is something that I kind of do without thinking, and it can be bad. It can be good. I, I, I wanna like a habit to go to the gym and not think about going to the gym.
[00:29:29] I just get in the car and go, right? Mm-hmm. And then a ritual like savoring, uh, a hot tea or, or writing a letter to someone. Those are things I, I try and just up the mindfulness on so it doesn't lose that. But I, I find it so fascinating, the research that you and dr. Robert Emmons and, you know, McCullough all have done about this.
[00:29:55] Yeah. And that there's really no magic how many times a week you should do [00:30:00] Gratitude. And that just is like, again, kind of going back to we're all unique and dynamic. Right.
[00:30:04] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Exactly. Actually, a couple things, it's so fascinating. Uh, one is, um, yeah, it, it really, it is gonna depend on the person. I mean, the studies I and others have done studies that show like, oh, maybe Gratitude once a week is better than three times a week, but yeah, these are all average effects, like with all psychology findings, they're average effects. So for some people, maybe gra gratitude every day works better, right? So you have to kind of self experiment and customize it to yourself. And I love the, the, the habit versus ritual, um, perspective, because that is something that we really struggled with.
[00:30:32] Like if you, it's like, like, okay, like acts of kindness, right? Like if I do random acts of kindness. All the time, like, I'm just gonna stop getting the boost from it, right? Yeah. Because it's just like, I so, so if it just becomes kind of a habit, so, but, and so, so like how do you not make it a habit and yet make it a habit, but still get, so I love that idea.
[00:30:51] One of my colleagues and friends, Mike Norton wrote a book recently actually called The Ritual Effect, right? And, uh, and so he, he talks a lot about that as well. So, um, [00:31:00] yeah, you know about that.
[00:31:01] Lainie Rowell: I haven't read that yet, but I am aware of it. It's on my TBR. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's in alignment with it.
[00:31:06] Right. Isn't that kind of his thought too is like rituals are different from habits, right?
[00:31:10] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah. And rituals are really, really important. And he talks about athletes having little rituals. You know, some of 'em are kind of superstitious, but they work. Um. So, yeah, thank you for, for, for highlighting that for me.
[00:31:20] I just, I just wrote, wrote that down. I'm gonna figure that.
[00:31:23] Lainie Rowell: Well, you know, I, one of the things I love, I subscribe to your newsletter. I'm gonna put an early plugin for that. Um, I'll ask you again at the end. We need to talk about that but one of the things I love in your newsletter is that you will send us these tips and I love how you talk about gratitude practices that most people don't think to do because there's the very common ones and those are high value, but I really love like counterfactual thinking. Yeah. Is to this day, my favorite gratitude practice.
[00:31:54] It's kind of a hard practice in some ways as you, yeah. You know, think about someone you love who's changed your life and now [00:32:00] imagine your life without them. You're like mentally removing them. That's like, that's a little unpleasant. Like you have to go into an unpleasant space to get the benefit of..
[00:32:07] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Exactly. The last newsletter. What? Right. It was about like Gratitude for things that didn't happen that could have been bad. Um, so yeah, it takes, now all of these practices take effort and imagination and deliberation sometimes. Um, but, but they're worth it. And it's still easier than like going to the gym, you know?
[00:32:24] I mean, it's still something you could work into your day very easily, you know? Yeah. As you're walking to make yourself some tea, you know? You, you're thinking about gratitude.
[00:32:32] Lainie Rowell: Okay. I cannot have you here and not ask about the happiness pie chart.
[00:32:38] Mm-hmm. So, and I really would just love to hear because I think there's been some assumptions over the years about what was shared there, and so I would love to hear from you. Right. Well, um, what are, what are people getting wrong with the happiness pie chart?
[00:32:52] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah, sure, sure. Well, first of all, um, my colleagues and I wrote about the pie chart 25 years ago.
[00:32:57] Lainie Rowell: Um, but it stuck. It stuck.
[00:32:59] Sonja Lyubomirsky: I [00:33:00] know it stuck. And the part that we regret is putting numbers on the pie chart. So, because then people took those numbers very, very seriously. So there's been a lot of misinterpretation about the pie chart. So I'll just say, this is how I think about the pie chart now. And I have a paper, by the way, it's on my website, sonjalyubomirsky.com.
[00:33:17] All my papers are there, and I think it's called Revisiting the pie chart. I think people just Google that. Um, anyway, the idea is that there's really three buckets of influences on happiness, right? The first bucket is genetics. We all know. You know, there's genetic influences on happiness.
[00:33:30] The, the second is your life circumstances, your life situation. Are you rich? Are you poor? Right? Are you married? Where do you live? How old are you, et cetera. Um, that's gonna influence your happiness depending where you are. Um. On that, you know, on those measures. Um, and then the third bucket is really like what you can do in your everyday life, like expressing gratitude, how you think, how you behave in every, your everyday life that can impact your happiness up or down.
[00:33:53] Yeah. And so there are really these three buckets. I can't, I really don't wanna put numbers on them. Um. But, um, I, I think it [00:34:00] makes sense. Like those are sort of the three major influences on happiness, almost. Anything you could put into one of these buckets.
[00:34:05] Lainie Rowell: Well, I mean people like certainty, right?
[00:34:08] So people like a nice clean pie chart and it's like half of it I can rage text my parents about, 'cause it's genetics. I think what people also really liked about that, and I would just love to know, no numbers attached necessarily, but it's like that circumstance was actually a pretty small part of it.
[00:34:26] Is that, does that hold up? Regardless of
[00:34:28] Sonja Lyubomirsky: if your circumstances are comfortable, okay. Than your life circumstances are smaller than you think. 'cause most people think like, oh, and that's what my book, the Myth of Happiness is about. Only af if I have a baby, I'll be happy. If I move to that city, I'll be happy.
[00:34:40] If I get that other job, I really want it. I'll be happy. Yes, you might be happier, you know, but it may not be as big of an effect as you think now. But if you live in a war zone, if you live in poverty, if you're in an abusive relationship, like absolutely those circumstances will have a huge difference on your happiness.
[00:34:56] So it's really only if you're sort of relatively comfortable that, [00:35:00] um, that circumstances aren't as big an effect as you think they will be.
[00:35:03] Lainie Rowell: And then the other thing that I think people just really gravitate towards is the idea that they have control over their happiness. Yeah. And that holds true, rather, we don't need a number on it.
[00:35:13] But it holds true.
[00:35:14] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Absolutely. It holds true. But as we've been talking about with Gratitude and other practices, you know, in my book, How to Feel Loved, right? How all those things that you could do to like show curiosity, to listen, to share. I mean, we have control over that, you know? Yeah. It's not easy.
[00:35:27] Again, just like if we wanna be fit and lose weight, you have to go, you know, change your diet, go to the gym, you know, lift weights, whatever. Um, it's not easy. It takes effort, it takes energy, but that's true for almost any domain of life. Um, but, but yes, absolutely. We have control over those things.
[00:35:43] Lainie Rowell: Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much for being generous with that question. I'd love to know if there is anything that you haven't had a chance to share yet, or you just even, you can't share it enough. I call this the shout it from the rooftop question. Like if there was only one thing you could share with people and it could be something you've already [00:36:00] shared with us today.
[00:36:00] Yeah. But it's like that important, you wanna say it again? Yeah. A lot of pressure. Sorry.
[00:36:04] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Sure. Well, the key to happiness is feeling connected and loved. My number one tip, if you were gonna be happier today, go have a conversation with someone. Make sure, make it a deeper conversation.
[00:36:15] And then, you know what I shared before is that. It's under your control if you wanna feel more loved. It's not about changing yourself, it's not about changing the other person. It's about changing the conversation or the series of conversations you're gonna have with that other person. Uh, so yeah, those are kind of the, I guess, the takeaways.
[00:36:30] Lainie Rowell: That was amazing. That was perfect. Now I know people are gonna wanna grab a copy of How to Feel Loved and I have my copyright here, giving it a hug. How can people stay in touch with you beyond grabbing a copy of the book?
[00:36:42] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Great. Hopefully you can post this on my, the website for the book is called HowtoFeelLoved.com. So it's very easy to remember HowtoFeelLoved.com. I also have a quiz that will tell you which is your strongest mindset, which is the mindset most needed of improvement.
[00:36:56] That's in HowtoFeelLoved.com. So that's probably the best place to [00:37:00] go. And then I have a, my own website is called SonjaLyubomirsky.com. Now I have a little bit trick if you Google. Sonja with a J my first name and happiness, you should be able to find me so that's easier than to spell my name, Sonja Happiness.
[00:37:15] And that's where my newsletter is. And I, you know, I really recommend that 'cause it's sort of every two weeks, it's just a free newsletter. People will, learn about happiness. I have a, a course that I teach every week, just 30 minutes on Zoom, with happiness tips, with a business partner, Lauren.
[00:37:29] So, yeah, there's a lot you can learn from these websites. That's, I hope people will discover them. I am a subscriber. I recommend other people subscribe. I'm always happy. I'm always happy, pun intended, I guess. Mm-hmm. Uh, when I get your email in my inbox. So people please, friends, please connect and I will be sure, by the way, to hyperlink everything in the show notes, make it easier for people to find all the great stuff you've put out there.
[00:37:54] So Sonja, I so appreciate this time you have made my day, my [00:38:00] week, my year. Like this was so fun for me. Thank you very much.
[00:38:03] Lainie Rowell: So sweet. So sweet of you to say Lainie. Yeah. Thank you so much.
[00:38:05] Sonja Lyubomirsky: Thank you all for listening.
[00:38:06] If you're grateful for this episode, please be sure to subscribe today. And if you're feeling really thankful, please submit a review and share with others so they know the value. One last thing, please connect on social media using the hashtag EvolvingWithGratitude to share your gratitude stories.